Hearings
Hearing Type:
Open
Date & Time:
Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 9:30am
Location:
Hart 216
Witnesses
Full Transcript
[Senate Hearing 115-580]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-580
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF: VICE ADMIRAL
JOSEPH MAGUIRE USN (RET.) TO BE DIRECTOR,
NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER; AND
ELLEN E. MCCARTHY TO BE ASSISTANT
SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE AND RESEARCH,
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, JULY 25, 2018
__________
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence
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Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
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SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina, Chairman
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Vice Chairman
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
MARCO RUBIO, Florida RON WYDEN, Oregon
SUSAN COLLINS, Maine MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
ROY BLUNT, Missouri ANGUS KING, Maine
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
TOM COTTON, Arkansas KAMALA HARRIS, California
JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio
CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona, Ex Officio
JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio
----------
Chris Joyner, Staff Director
Michael Casey, Minority Staff Director
Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
----------
JULY 25, 2018
OPENING STATEMENTS
Burr, Hon. Richard, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from North Carolina. 1
Warner, Mark R., Vice Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Virginia..... 3
WITNESSES
Vice Admiral Joseph Maguire, USN (Ret.), Nominated to be
Director, National Counterterrorism Center..................... 5
Prepared statement........................................... 8
Ellen E. McCarthy, Nominated to be Assistant Secretary for
Intelligence and Research, Department of State................. 12
Prepared statement........................................... 15
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
Nomination material for Joseph Maguire
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 34
Additional Prehearing Questions.............................. 52
Additional Prehearing Questions for the Record............... 66
Nomination material for Ellen E. McCarthy
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 73
Additional Prehearing Questions.............................. 88
Additional Prehearing Questions for the Record............... 118
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF: VICE ADMIRAL
JOSEPH MAGUIRE USN (RET.) TO BE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL
COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER;AND ELLEN E. MCCARTHY TO BE
ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE
AND RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF STATE
----------
WEDNESDAY, JULY 25, 2018
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:43 a.m., in
Room SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard Burr
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Burr, Warner, Collins, Blunt, Lankford,
Cotton, Cornyn, Feinstein, Wyden, King, and Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BURR, CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Chairman Burr. I'd like to call this hearing to order, and
I'd like to welcome our witnesses today: Vice Admiral Joseph
Maguire, President Trump's nominee for Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center; and Ellen McCarthy, President Trump's
nominee for Assistant Secretary for Intelligence and Research.
Congratulations to both of you on your nominations, and I want
to thank both of you for your years of honorable service to the
United States.
I'd like to start by recognizing the family that you've
brought with you today. Vice Admiral Maguire, I understand you
have your wife Kathy, soon to do some intervention this
afternoon at house shopping.
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. As well as your daughter Catherine, your son
Dan, and your daughter-in-law Jackie. Welcome to all of you.
Ms. McCarthy, I believe you have your husband, Gordon. He's
been through similar of these before and we're thankful--he's
here along with your children Liam----
Ms. McCarthy. And Eileen.
Chairman Burr [continuing]. And Eileen, and your mother-in-
law Dawn Hannah. Welcome to all of you.
I want to thank you for the support of these nominees. I'm
confident that they would not be here if it wasn't for your
years of encouragement and, potentially more importantly, your
patience.
Our goal in conducting this hearing is to enable the
committee to consider Vice Admiral Maguire's and Ms. McCarthy's
qualifications and to allow for thoughtful deliberation by our
members.
The witnesses each have already provided substantive
written responses to numerous questions presented by the
committee and its members. Today, of course, members will be
able to ask additional questions and hear directly from the
nominees.
Vice Admiral Maguire graduated from Manhattan College and
received his master's degree from the Naval Postgraduate
School. He then served 36 years in the United States Navy as a
Navy special warfare officer.
During that time, he commanded at every level, serving as
the commanding officer of the Naval Special Warfare Center and
SEAL Team 2, as well as with the Naval Special Warfare Command.
From 2007-2010, Vice Admiral Maguire served as the deputy
director for strategic and operational planning at NCTC.
Following his government service, he served as Vice
President at Booz Allen, leading Booz Allen's efforts to
support the special operations community.
The Vice Admiral currently serves as the President and CEO
of the Special Operations Warrior Foundation. Thank you for
that, Admiral.
Ms. McCarthy earned her undergraduate degree from the
University of South Carolina and her master's degree in public
policy from the University of Maryland. Earlier in her career,
Ms. McCarthy served as an intelligence research specialist for
the United States Atlantic Command, the chief of intelligence
operations and policies for the United States Coast Guard, and
then as director of human capital management in the Human
Capital Management Office in the Office of the Undersecretary
of Defense for Intelligence.
Ms. McCarthy served as the President of the Intelligence
and National Security Alliance from 2008 until 2012, and then
as the chief operating officer of the National Geospatial
Intelligence Agency from 2012 to 2015.
Ms. McCarthy currently serves as the vice President for
intelligence analytics at Noblis, an independent non-profit
science and technology organization that serves Federal law
enforcement and intelligence agency clients.
Vice Admiral Maguire, you've been asked to lead the NCTC at
a time when we're facing threats from state and non-state
actors alike, while we're engaged in a robust debate at home on
the scope and scale of intelligence collection and what
authorities are right, appropriate and lawful.
I trust that you'll speak truth to power as the Director of
National Intelligence works through some incredibly complex and
divisive issues.
Ms. McCarthy, it's important that the leader at the State
Department's intelligence community component engage in ongoing
and substantive work with the rest of the intelligence
community. I trust that your leadership of I&R will only
increase that collaboration and improve its contribution to the
IC.
The committee will ask both to be responsive, transparent
and timely in our interactions. These are absolutely necessary
conditions for us to conduct effective and real-time oversight.
As I've mentioned to other nominees during their
confirmation hearing, I can assure you that this committee will
continue to faithfully follow its charter and conduct vigorous
and real-time oversight over the intelligence community, its
operations and its activities. We will ask difficult and
probing questions of you and your staff, and we expect honest,
complete, and timely responses.
I enjoyed meeting with both of you and discussing your
qualifications and reasons for pursuing public service. I'm
confident in your ability to lead NCTC and I&R, and I look
forward to supporting your nominations and ensuring their
consideration without delay.
I want to thank both of you again for being here, for your
years of service to our country. And I look forward to your
testimony.
I'll now recognize the Vice Chairman for any comments he
might like to make.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, VICE CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM VIRGINIA
Vice Chairman Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to
echo your comments and welcome our nominees.
Vice Admiral Maguire, it's good to see you. I enjoyed our
visit. Ms. McCarthy, welcome as well. You've both been
nominated to two of the most important positions in the
intelligence community at obviously a critical juncture for our
country. You both have long and impressive records of
achievement, and I applaud your willingness to once again
provide public service.
The NCTC is the IC's top organization for tracking and
countering the continuing threat from terrorism. We know that
we still have many men and women on the front line in the fight
against terrorism, and it only takes one slip-up for awful
things to happen.
As we discussed, Admiral, though, your job and your ability
to do your job is going to be only as good as your ability to
maintain a strong relationship with our allies and partners.
Obviously, during this time period, when it appears at times
our President is more interested in punching our adversary and
allies--or punching our allies in the nose rather than our
adversaries, I think building those relationships and keeping
them strong is going to be terribly important.
Ms. McCarthy, the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence
and Research is a small but critical component of the IC. One
only has to think back to the intelligence assessments on
Iraq's WMD to recall that it was I&R that urged a note of
caution during that time. And truth was, I&R was right and most
of the rest of the community was wrong. Again, it's going to be
very important that you continue to provide that support for
the men and women who serve in the State Department all
around--all around the world.
One of the things about this committee I'm so proud of is
that we do work in a common pattern, but one of the things that
I'm going to look for from both of you is an ironclad
commitment that the men and women who will be working for both
of you will be empowered to continue to assess and analyze
intelligence upon which our Nation depends, free from political
interference.
We've talked about this in the past. It is more important
than ever that the intelligence community feels they have the
freedom to speak truth to power. Now, challenges may be if the
power doesn't listen to the truth at this point, but our job is
still to make sure truth to power regardless of other--
regardless of any other considerations.
And that is, again, made more difficult when,
unfortunately, this White House, if they're not punching our
allies, occasionally seems to be undermining the integrity of
our intelligence community, which I think is quite different.
I'm also concerned with some of the President's recent
actions in terms of threatening to remove security clearances
from former intelligence officials, what appears to be simply
based upon their exercising their First Amendment rights. The
truth is, again, the IC, which has always been valued with its
independence, cannot give in to that kind of political pressure
or manipulation. And I'm going to be, again, trying to get you
both on the record to make sure that both of you and that the
men and women who work for you will maintain that, maintain
that independence.
Finally, I just want to note for the record that tomorrow,
July 26, will be the sixth year in a row that I and all of my
colleagues on this committee will honor the men and women who
serve in silence in the agencies and components of the
intelligence community. Tomorrow will mark 71 years since
President Truman signed into law the National Security Act of
1947, which formed the basis for today's IC.
It's a small token, what we do tomorrow, in terms of a
resolution from Congress recognizing that service. But since so
many of these men and women who work for you will always have
to serve in some degree of anonymousness, it is important that
those of us in Congress put forward that message, recognizing
the IC professionals for the enormous job they do each and
every day to keep our Nation straight and secure.
Again, I want to thank both of you for your willingness to
step forward. We look forward to this hearing and look forward
to supporting your nominations as well.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
Vice Admiral and Ms. McCarthy, would you please stand and
raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to give the
committee the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Admiral Maguire. I do.
Ms. McCarthy. I do.
Chairman Burr. Please be seated.
Before we move to your statements, I'll ask you to answer
five standard questions the committee poses to each nominee who
appears before us. They're just a simple yes or no answer for
the record. Do both of you agree to appear before the committee
here and in other venues when invited?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, Chairman.
Chairman Burr. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials
from your office to appear before the committee and designated
staff when invited?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Chairman.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to provide documents or any
other materials requested by the committee in order for us to
carry out our oversight and legislative responsibilities?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Will you both ensure that your office and
your staff provide such materials to the committee when
requested?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, sir.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to inform and fully brief, to
the fullest extent possible, all members of the committee of
the intelligence activities and covert actions, rather than
only the Chair and Vice Chairman?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. I want to thank you very much for that.
We'll now proceed to your opening statements, after which
I'll recognize members by seniority for up to five minutes of
questions. Vice Admiral Maguire, I'll ask you to begin,
followed by Ms. McCarthy. Vice Admiral, the floor is yours.
TESTIMONY OF VICE ADMIRAL JOSEPH MAGUIRE USN (RET.), NOMINATED
TO BE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER
Admiral Maguire. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr, Vice Chairman Warner, members of the
committee: Thank you very much for this opportunity to appear
before you this morning. I'd like to add my own special thanks
and appreciation to the efforts of the committee staffers, as
well as many officers at ODNI and NCTC. I have recently become
very aware that there's a tremendous amount of work that goes
into a confirmation hearing.
Mr. Chairman, I realize that all prior nominees to be the
Director of the National Counterterrorism Center were well
known to this committee when they appeared before here for
their nomination, having served as either acting directors of
NCTC or a time of their responsibility within the Federal
Government. I'm honored to appear before this committee today
to introduce myself and discuss my credentials.
But first, I'd like to once again, sir, take a moment to
recognize my family: as you said, my son Dan and my daughter-
in-law Jackie from Chicago; my daughter Catherine, who lives in
Tampa. In addition to that, I'd also like to recognize one of
my daughters from a military family, Kelly McRaven, who is
here, the daughter of Admiral and Mrs. Bill McRaven. While I
was in uniform, my children lived in Virginia, California,
Massachusetts, Hawaii, and Florida, and some of those states at
multiple times. They too have served and given much to our
country.
Last, my wife Kathy. She's graduated to supported--excuse
me. She's guided and supported me for 42 years. Kathy raised
our children during my many and long deployments and dedicated
her life to serving the men and women of our armed forces and
families. For the three years that I was assigned to NCTC,
Kathy met every single special operator who was severely
wounded when they arrived at either Walter Reed or Bethesda
Naval Hospital, sometimes in the middle of the night.
Then Secretary of Defense Robert Gates awarded Kathy the
Department of Defense medal for distinguished public service
for her support to hundreds of wounded service members and
their families, and she did this throughout our career.
Although I was the one in uniform for 36 years, she served
too. Mr. Chairman, I come from a community where service above
self is expected and there is no greater honor than to be asked
to lead. So, when offered the opportunity to return to
government service as the Director of NCTC, there was no other
answer than yes.
I'm honored by the trust and confidence of the President
and the Director of National Intelligence in my ability to
serve our Nation's counterterrorism enterprise. Few Americans
have had the privilege that I have this morning. I want to
thank you for considering my nomination to be the next Director
of the National Counterterrorism Center and, if confirmed,
pledge to be transparent, collaborative with this committee and
members of Congress.
It was my distinct privilege to serve as the deputy
director of strategic operational planning when NCTC was led by
Director Scott Redd and Mike Leiter. From my experience working
in the interagency and the eventual successes we had, I'm
convinced that winning this counterterrorism fight can only be
achieved through a coordinated and synchronized whole of
government approach. I look to the example of my friend Admiral
Bill McRaven, the joint special operations commander, JSOC
commander, during the raid on Osama Bin Laden compound in
Abbottabad. This highly sensitive operation was not only an
intelligence community and Defense Department campaign, but in
truth it was the result of a disciplined interagency process.
Looking back over the last 17 years since September 11,
2001, the United States, working with our partners and allies,
has made tremendous progress in our ability to detect and
disrupt multi-actor sophisticated terrorist attacks. We've
built a robust counterterrorism apparatus that has
significantly increased our ability to protect the homeland as
well as share valuable information with our own government and
our global partners. However, significant challenges still
remain and the U.S. and our allies face an increasingly complex
terrorism landscape that includes homegrown violent extremists,
Sunni violent extremist groups such as ISIS and Al Qaida, and
Shia violent extremists backed by Iran.
I think it's fair to say that we face more threats
originating from more places and from more individuals than we
have had in the last 17 years. Given this threat environment,
I'm committed to ensuring that NCTC and the broader IC remain
vigilant, innovative, and adaptive as our adversaries are
persistent.
We've made great strides dismantling ISIS, Al Qaida, and
other terrorist organizations. However, the past 17 years have
shown us that bullets and drone strikes alone are not
sufficient to counter violent extremist organizations. To
ultimately win this fight, we must address the causes and
conditions that inspire men and women to join terrorist
organizations and radicalize to violence.
Mr. Chairman, I will bring all my energy and a sense of
urgency to this position, leadership experience in both
government and industry, a reputation for speaking truth to
power, trust, confidence and personal relationships with many
of our current national security leaders, and the ability to
build a strong relationship.
I will pursue a number of important priorities if confirmed
as the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center and
I've outlined these priorities in my written statement for the
record, and I look forward to discussing these issues with the
committee in greater length in the future.
Chairman Burr, Vice Chairman Warner, members of this
committee, thank you very much for this opportunity. I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Admiral Maguire follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Burr. Vice Admiral, thank you.
Ms. McCarthy, the floor is yours.
STATEMENT OF ELLEN E. McCARTHY, NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT
SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE AND RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Ms. McCarthy. Thank you. Chairman Burr, Ranking Member
Warner, members of the committee: I am truly honored to appear
before you today. I am so pleased to be joined by my family, my
husband of over 22 years, Gordon Hannah, who's always been my
biggest supporter and my best friend. We are we're joined by
our remarkable children Liam and Eileen Hannah, of whom I'm
immensely proud. They inspire me to be a better person, a
better citizen, and a better servant.
But I also have to recognize my mother-in-law, my cousins,
my coworkers, everybody who's standing behind me today. I thank
you all for your continued support. I don't think I would be
here without any one of you. Thank you.
I also want to recognize my esteemed colleague Admiral Joe
Maguire, the nominee for Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center, a true patriot who had an incredibly
distinguished career in the naval special warfare community and
continues to serve today as the President and CEO of the
Special Operations Foundation. Joe, I'm thrilled to spend this
moment in time with you today.
Admiral Maguire. Thank you.
Ms. McCarthy. I also want to thank President Trump and
Secretary Pompeo for their confidence and trust and for
providing me the opportunity to again serve our country. If
confirmed, I would be most proud to lead the women and the men
of the Bureau of Intelligence and Research and to work with the
agencies in the U.S. intelligence community in support of the
mission of the State Department.
Over the last few weeks, I've been asked by many why would
I want to return to government. The answer is quite simple. I'm
motivated by service and working hard and I'm passionate about
the intelligence community and its role in securing this great
Nation. I also believe that, if confirmed, my broad
intelligence community experience and deep expertise in the
business of intelligence can help the Bureau of Intelligence
and Research grow its impact on the mission of the State
Department.
The call to serve and work ethic is embedded in my DNA. My
father, a former tax attorney and college professor, worked
literally until the day he died. He was a brilliant lawyer
whose motivation was not salary, but helping people with their
tax problems or teaching--teaching and mentoring young people
interested in pursuing degrees and careers in accounting and
taxation.
My mother to this day is always looking to the future and
identifying things she can do to help, whether it's
volunteering at the polls or serving in her local nursing home.
Their experience inspired me to start working at the age of 13
and my first jobs included delivering newspapers, waiting
tables and tending bars. Self-actualization for me was doing a
great job and making others happy.
My passion for the intelligence community was almost
immediate. I started as a Soviet submarine analyst during the
Cold War and learned very quickly about the value of good
intelligence. I'll never forget the feedback I received from a
mission commander when he indicated that the mission was a
success, in large part because of the support I had provided.
That moment was absolutely cathartic and it was the moment I
was hooked. Even today, I want to be part of a community that
informs policymakers, supports diplomats, war fighters and law
enforcement professionals, and helps them do their jobs better.
If confirmed, I will bring with me the same desire, plus
more than 30 years of service across the IC and the private
sector. When I started in government the late 1980s, people
were hired by one organization and there they pretty much
stayed. My career followed a different path, one that has
provided me a broad understanding of the IC as well as deep
expertise in the business of intelligence, which includes
requirements, budget, vision, strategy.
I've spent a career taking organizations to a new level. In
order, Senators, to stay within my time limit, I am going to
refer you to my statement for the record, which provides a
snapshot of my accomplishments. But I hope in your review
you'll see that I left every organization better than when I
started, or at least I certainly tried.
So I'm absolutely thrilled at the prospect of returning to
government in support of Secretary Pompeo and the State
Department and will leverage my broad experience inside and
outside government and the critical relations I have developed
throughout my career.
I will place a special focus on growing I&R's impact on the
State Department mission. The Bureau of Intelligence and
Research has a long and very proud history in providing in-
depth all-source analysis, intelligence policy and
coordination, and analytic outreach that have guided our
Nation's foreign policy. With its unique mix of Foreign Service
and civil service professionals, it really plays an outsized
role in the intelligence community.
If confirmed, I will work hard to ensure that I&R continues
to recruit and train the highest quality and diverse staff. It
would be my first priority to provide them with the tools and
resources they need to continue to provide value to the
Secretary and Department policy makers.
Equally important, I will vigorously defend the integrity
of the analytic process to ensure independence and unbiased
analysis--the I&R brand. I will be vigilant that intelligence
and sensitive intelligence-related law enforcement activities
are consistent with and support our foreign policy and national
security objectives.
Finally, I will leverage my experience in the intelligence
community, both inside and outside of government, to enhance
I&R's and the IC's analytic outreach efforts with a focus on
building I&R's well-established expertise in foreign policy and
intelligence issues.
So Mr. Chairman, Vice Chairman, if confirmed I'll bring
extensive experience across the IC and the private sector, a
passion to serve, and relevant skills to the position of
Assistant Secretary for Intelligence and Research. I'll work
tirelessly to ensure that the I&R continues to provide the
President, the Secretary of State, and other senior
policymakers with timely and independent intelligence analysis
and that our intelligence analysis activities support our
foreign policy and national security objectives.
With that, thank you for your consideration and I'm happy
to answer any questions you may have.
[The prepared statement of Ms. McCarthy follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Burr. Ms. McCarthy, thank you. I didn't think that
you could get a higher level of commitment from me because it
was already high when you came in, but the bartender thing
really got to me.
[Laughter.]
I want to thank both of you for being here, for pursuing
this request by the Administration to serve your country in one
more capacity. At this time, I'd like to recognize the Vice
Chairman for questions.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I
want to also echo. You both bring remarkable talent, remarkable
background and skills, but I do feel it's necessary--and Ms.
McCarthy, you've already alluded to this, but we live in
challenging and unusual times, and I need you both to state
again clearly for the record that, should you be confirmed,
that you'll make sure that the men and women who work for you
and for that matter you in these leadership roles, will make
sure that the opinions you render will be independent, will not
be politically influenced, will not be guided by a White House
who wants one answer versus what your analysts may come up
with.
Obviously, you both had records in this field, but I'd like
you to both address that, that willingness again to speak truth
to power. Admiral first.
Admiral Maguire. Well, Vice Chairman Warner, you know, to
me, if confirmed as the Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center--and, you know, for my 36 years in
uniform, I've always believed it's loyalty up and loyalty down.
So although clearly the Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center is a political appointee nominated by
the President, I don't think that there's anything political
about the position.
In addition to that, as a leader of the workforce, if the
analysis indicates that it is what it is, I think that to do
otherwise and color and shape the information to please other
folks would be a disservice to them and to the Nation.
So I absolutely assure you that if the analysis from my
workforce indicates that there is something that needs to be
said, no matter what it is, I promise to tell the truth and to
be able to represent the information and the hard analysis from
the intelligence community professionals as accurately and as
forthcoming as I possibly can, and I am more than willing to
speak truth to power.
Vice Chairman Warner. Thank you.
Ms. McCarthy.
Ms. McCarthy. Senator, I make this promise to always
provide truth to power and so will my workforce. I will tell
you that I have a long career of working across the government
for folks from many parties who've taken on many positions, and
I'm proud to say that I've always given them the truth.
Just a short story. I started my career in naval
intelligence and I will never forget my first briefing to a
Navy captain, who wanted something that I wasn't going to be
able to provide him. And I'll tell you, that moment sort of
sealed in me the importance of providing truth to this captain,
who might as well have been the Pope. But I gave him my best
analysis, I had the support of my leadership, and from that
moment on that's all I've ever provided. That's all we will
continue to provide.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, I have confidence in both of
you in that, but I did--in these very strange times, it's
important to get that on the record.
Admiral, in your previous roles both at NCTC and as head of
Navy SEALs and Naval Special Ops--I think we talked about this
a little bit in our visit--you understand the importance of
strong alliances. Obviously in NCTC, you have a remarkable--
your operation will have remarkable capabilities. But again, if
we're going to keep America safe you're going to have to rely
upon tips and information as well from allies and partners
around the world.
Again, in normal times I wouldn't have to ask this
question, but can you speak to that need of maintaining those
alliances, those relationships, and how in light of the fact
that at the political level there may be some challenges, where
we seem to have a White House that sometimes treats our allies
as adversaries and adversaries as friends, but can you speak to
the importance of those special relationships in terms of this
new task you'll have as permanent Director of NCTC?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Vice Chairman Warner. You know, being
a military guy and having some experience, I've always felt
that you can't have too many friends on the battlefield. And
right now with the counterterrorism battlefield, we really need
to have all of our partners and allies.
I think that for our NATO allies that we have a long
established relationship with, counterterrorism and terrorism
is not new to the Europeans. We've really only become very,
very sensitive to this after 9/11. But I remember in the 1970s
and the 1980s with the Red Army Faction and Baader-Meinhof and
all of the terrorism events that they had there, they've got
tremendous experience in this field, but also information.
I think the key to success in this battle is intelligence
and information, and we must maintain the bridges and the
relationships both ways, to be able to receive and to be able
to provide; and I think that it is key and essential and I
intend to--as I said, I have really a reputation for being able
to build relationships, but I feel that I really don't need to
do that. My colleagues at NCTC and in the intelligence
community right now have very deep and very broad relationships
with our partners, with our allies. And I intend to capitalize
that and continue to do that, but also recognize that we really
can't do this alone without them, and to not rely on our
partners would be a mistake.
Vice Chairman Warner. Let me drill down on more of a
technical question. You used to be head of the NCTC's
Directorate of Special Operations Planning. Will you commit
to--we get kind of into jurisdictional challenges here, but we
really need, this committee needs, those DSOP documents to
perform our oversight functions, particularly since this is
mostly funded out of the NIP.
Will you commit to work with us in making sure that this
committee has access to those documents on a going-forward
basis?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator. As you know from the
Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act, the Director
of Strategic Operational Planning is tasked by the President
and works for the President and the Executive Office of the
President. I am acutely aware and will do everything in my
power to make sure that this committee provides oversight, and
I will ensure that I will provide all the information necessary
to this committee.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, again, Mr. Chairman, I want to
thank you, and I want to thank both the witnesses for their
long-term service to our country and keeping Americans safe.
You're going to take on very important jobs at a very important
time. Thank you.
Admiral Maguire. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Blunt.
Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman.
Great to have both of you here for these two really
critically important jobs. Admiral Maguire, when we were by the
office the other day, we talked a little bit about the
importance of using automation to modernize the way the NCTC
narrows down the information that analysts should be looking
at. What do you see as the future of that and what kind of
particular thing would you want this committee, as it supports
you in that effort, to understand why that matters that the
automation effort, some level of artificial intelligence----
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator Blunt.
Senator Blunt [continuing]. Could be a step up?
Admiral Maguire. The main thing that I've heard from the
workforce in my time engaging with those professionals in NCTC
is the challenge with the volume of information that we have.
As you know, NCTC is involved in watch-listing in the Terrorist
Identity Data Environment, where there are literally millions
of parts of information in there. And in order to query it,
sometimes it takes longer than it needs to be.
In addition to that, most of the information in that
databank right now is biographical in nature, and as we move
more to biometric information, we will need additional
resources to be able to go and insert the biometric
information, because the biographical information can be
spoofed. You could have a false name, a false passport, a false
identity. But it's tough to spoof the biometrics.
So as we go into the 21st century systems, we need to make
sure that we have things that are readily available that the
analyst can query and receive in a very, very timely manner,
because sometimes time is of the essence. Right now, I think
that the systems we have are good, but as we look to the future
and shifting to biometrics, I think that we're also going to
need some support and resources for the computers that we need
to do that.
But mostly I feel it's critically important to let the
computers compute, and right now there's an awful lot of human
intervention, and when you have human intervention there's also
an opportunity for human error.
Senator Blunt. So the more the computers compute, the more
the analysts can analyze?
Admiral Maguire. Well, yes, sir, the more they can analyze.
And also, we might be able to achieve some efficiencies in
manpower if we could allow the processing to do that for us.
Senator Blunt. So, Ms. McCarthy, Senator Warner and I
represent the two big installations for National Geospatial. We
got a chance to see your work there as the chief operating
officer. So at least for me, I've had more of an opportunity to
look at what you do on a day-to-day--or what you're capable of
on a day-to-day basis. Certainly the job you're taking is sort
of an intersection of diplomacy and intelligence.
As we look at what China is doing, the aggressive efforts
in China, particularly the aggressive technical efforts, do you
want to comment on whether that in your opinion is in line with
a state just trying to advance itself economically? Or does
that indicate a more aggressive strategy on the part of China
in the neighborhood they live in and in the world?
Ms. McCarthy. Senator, thank you for your question. I will
tell you, consistent with the rest of the intelligence
community right now, I believe China is one of our biggest
focus areas. It certainly should be in terms of the threat now
and the threat looking into the future. So I know, should I be
confirmed for this position at I&R, that we will absolutely
look at investing the resources that are necessary to continue
to address this issue from a foreign policy perspective.
I'll tell you, given my experience at NGA, I&R also has a
role in geography and mapping and working in the development of
foreign policy. They have an office of the geographer and that
is a part of I&R. And so I'm actually very excited to be able
to work with those folks and to understand more of their
support to the policy area, specifically as it relates to
China, and to work my connections with the National Geospatial
Intelligence Agency.
Senator Blunt. Great. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Feinstein.
Senator Feinstein. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Maguire, I enjoyed my time with you in the office. And
I've been thinking about it and I just want you to know what I
treasure about the agency, because I read its intelligence. I
appreciate the forward-leaning nature of some of it and the
fact that over the years--it's not necessary that all
intelligence agencies agree, and that I got a somewhat very
positive and good perspective from the intelligence overall.
I don't want to see that blunted. I appreciate the
independence of the agency from other agencies. You're a Navy
SEAL. I assume you're strong and independent, and I hope this
will become and be a strong and independent agency. Would you
comment, please?
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator. To me, I think the Senate
did a wonderful job with the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism
Prevention Act in giving the authorities to the center. But I
look at the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center
really as the honest broker. And as you said, I think that
there will be times when there might be differences with the
Intelligence Committee--I mean community--on opinion.
I think that if that's the case, I mean, NCTC's job is to
analyze all intelligence and then make the best recommendation.
But if you get to a point where you've got two members of the
IC, perhaps with various viewpoints, I think both of those need
to be presented. NCTC exists because prior to 9/11, as you
know, the FBI and the CIA did their own intelligence and, you
know, the White House had to sort it out. NCTC's job is to
receive all the intelligence and to sort it out.
So I will do my utmost to do that. And when it comes to
leadership, ma'am, you can count on my leadership at the center
to do the best I can to make sure that differences are resolved
and we have a coordinated staffed effort and present it to both
the Executive Branch and to the Legislative Branch.
Senator Feinstein. Well, let me thank you for that. I meant
to ask it in the office and really didn't. But you're on the
record. This is very important to me.
Admiral Maguire. Yes--yes, Senator.
Senator Feinstein. Because I really prize your products,
and I want you to know that. And if they're slightly different,
for me that's important; and it gives, I think, the oversight
body an opportunity to look more deeply into something. So I
hope you'll continue that independent tradition and I suspect
you will.
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you.
Admiral Maguire. You're welcome.
Senator Feinstein. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Lankford.
Senator Lankford. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
To both of you, thank you for stepping back up again. It is
a difficult decision because you know what you're walking into
in many ways because you've both served in the government
before. And especially going through the nomination process,
where they ask you to get everything in the world you've ever
done, said, thought or been and to form a list of that. To be
able to put that on the public record is no simple thing to be
able to do. And I appreciate you doing the work on that.
Mr. Maguire, let me start with you. I want to ask you
specific questions. We've worked before with Nick Rasmussen,
who was always very open with us and was very engaged with us
when we asked questions and gave us great detail. When he was
leaving, he made a comment about that he was concerned about
analytical lanes in the road for NCTC and trying to be able to
make sure that we have clear lanes in the road and everyone
kind of knows their job and only does theirs, but also we're
careful where we have overlap to be able to solve those
problems.
Help me understand where you're picking this up and running
with the ball at that point, trying to deal with the analytical
lanes in the road?
Admiral Maguire. Well, Senator Lankford, I think that what
we need to do is take a good look at redundancies. Resources
are very, very precious and if we have overlap and dual, then
that needs to be addressed. I think that lanes of the road are
critically important, but also different members of the
intelligence community bring a different culture to their
assessment as well. So at the National Counterterrorism Center,
as you know, we receive, we analyze and integrate all
intelligence possessed.
So as far as the lanes of the road, I see two things. One,
as we go forward, realizing that there are other priorities
right now that are being raised and the counterterrorism
community and the structure might perhaps be put on the back
burner right now. So I think that what we need to do is make
sure that we reduce redundancies, maximize resources, and stay
in the lane of the road.
But if there is double-tap, I think it's also not a bad
thing to have a co-author opinion presented to the committee.
Senator Lankford. By the way, which I'd agree, the
redundancy is helpful to be able to get it, but every time we
do redundancy that also means we're not paying for something
else that needs to be done.
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator.
Senator Lankford. So the balance that this committee will
have as we walk through the process and the insight that we'll
need from you is: We have redundancy in this area; we could use
those resources in another area more efficiently. You're going
to see those more than we will. And the polite thing to say is
we just have a different culture and we're going to bring a
different perspective to it and it's helpful to have multiple
perspectives when you're making policy decisions, and I agree.
The difficult thing to do is to say we have redundancy
here, we need the resources in another place, we're underfunded
in this area and we could use the help there.
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator. I have the benefit of being
the resource director of strategic assessments for United
States Special Operations Command from 2001 to 2004. So I
realize how to identify requirements and make sure that we have
the appropriate resources against that.
If confirmed by the Senate, what I intend to do is get
smart, realize--to take a good look, what are the highest
priorities that we have within the National Counterterrorism
Center and the IC, aligning the manpower and the resources to
that, and taking a look at where we can take risk. And if there
is redundancy, obviously I agree with you, we can't afford to
have redundancy. And then we need to make a decision.
Senator Lankford. The size of the directorates that are
there in your responsibility, are you concerned about the size
of any one of them? Do you think that there's one that needs to
be larger or smaller when you're going into this?
Admiral Maguire. Well, Senator, I think that--I know that
there might have been some criticism on how did the National
Counterterrorism Center get to be the size it is, and I've
discussed that with the acting director and the other folks in
the center. My response to that is that the size of the force,
the size of the workforce, is appropriate because of the tasks
that we've had.
When I was there in 2009, we had about 700 people at the
National Counterterrorism Center, but we all remember in
December of 2009 when we had the Underwear Bomber that tried to
blow up the aircraft over Detroit. As a result of that, then we
stood up the Pursuit Group, which is about 100 people. In
addition to that, we've also had additional requirements for
watch listing and Terrorist Identity Data Environment.
And with that requirement, we had to place the additional
resources. So to me, I think it's appropriate. But once again,
Senator, if confirmed, I'll get in there, I'll get smart, I'll
take a good hard look. And then if I have to make some tough
decisions, I understand that I will.
Senator Lankford. We want to help you with that through the
process. Again, we need NCTC to do a great job for the benefit
of the entire country. We need that--we need that wisdom and
insight that's there.
We need it also to be as efficient as possible, because
every dollar we spend in redundancy or waste in an area is
another dollar we're not spending somewhere else.
Admiral Maguire. Yes, Senator Lankford.
Senator Lankford. Two more quick comments. Ms. McCarthy, a
quick question for you. You've been in government work, then
you've stepped outside to do a think tank, and now you have the
disadvantage of being in the think tank presenting ideas; now
you have to implement those.
So what are you bringing in that mode that comes from the
outside, from the think tank, that you look at immediately and
say this is something I need to apply?
Ms. McCarthy. So thank you, Senator. There's a couple of
areas. I've actually worked for--I'm working for a non-profit
now and then I also ran a think tank a few years ago. And from
those experiences, I'm actually bringing I think two sort of--I
understand these areas better than I did before when I was in
government.
While at the Intelligence and National Security Alliance,
we are the IC's think tank. And so we brought together the
public, private, and academic sectors to focus on some tough
challenges that were usually posed by the Office of the DNI or
other senior leadership across the IC, to include acquisition
reform or security clearance reform, and to provide a table
where you can have that sort of discussion I think is going to
be very beneficial as we look at State I&R's role in analytic
outreach and the fact that it is required. It supports not only
the State Department, but the rest of the IC, in bringing
together the best in academia, the best in the private sector,
to also talk about some big issue areas that will affect
foreign policy.
So that's one area where I have some strength. In my
current position at Noblis as the Vice President for
Intelligence and Analytics, my focus primarily is looking at
the tools and resources that can be used to help the analysts.
So that includes artificial intelligence and working with data
science. And so I know firsthand with a little investment what
we can do in terms of providing new capabilities to support our
analysts.
Senator Lankford. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I, too, enjoyed very much visiting with both of you. My
colleagues have been talking about the importance of speaking
truth, truth to power, and the White House apparently considers
when you all stand up for truth that this is somehow going
rogue. This is their analysis of it. I consider it patriotism
and duty; and I was pleased to meet with both of you.
I want to take a particular example, the travel ban, and
walk through with you, Mr. Maguire, how you would go about
handling this. The executive order refers repeatedly to the
DNI, and it requires a number of assessments from the Director
of National Intelligence. And these are assessments where the
DNI could look to the director of the National Counterterrorism
Center for counsel. So this is the travel ban, seven times
refers to the DNI.
How are you going to--if you're asked for your counsel on
the travel ban, how are you going to make sure that any
assessment is made independent of political pressure?
Admiral Maguire. Senator Wyden, thanks for the question,
and that was one that I did ask the staff for a little bit of
guidance before I appeared before this committee today. And I
was informed by Russ Travers and my colleagues, or my potential
colleagues at the National Counterterrorism Center, that the
travel ban--regardless of the travel ban, it doesn't matter
what country anybody who's requesting entry into the United
States is from. The process is the same and anybody who's
entering--who's requesting entry into the United States, goes
through a rigorous check within the National Counterterrorism
Center to look for a nexus in counterterrorism.
I've asked specifically, Would there be any change in the
process with that, and they said everybody's the same; no
matter what country you come from, whether they're on the
travel ban or whether they're from an ally, if they're coming
and they're requesting, then the process is absolutely the same
for everyone no matter where they come from.
And to me, that's the way it's got to be. We just have to
make sure that we are deliberate and we just treat everybody
equally. But the process is the process, and I think the
process is very deliberate and I think the process is very
thorough. And I don't see any reason to change that just
because of the travel ban and I think that the folks who've
done that for a living right now at NCTC, DHS, State
Department, and everybody else have done a very good job.
Senator Wyden. I appreciate your statement that you want to
do this by the book. This is a very politicized executive
order. So I'm sure we're going to have further discussions
about it. And I don't think the executive order refers to the
DNI by osmosis. There's a reason for it. I think your counsel
is probably going to be asked about this, and it is going to be
in a highly pressurized, politicized situation.
Let me ask you one other question. You all are responsible
for TIDE, a database of known or suspected terrorists with over
a million and a half people, including 16,000 U.S. persons. I
would be the first to say this performs useful functions and
valuable intelligence as a tool.
At the same time, my view is security and liberty aren't
supposed to be mutually exclusive. We're supposed to do both.
So how would you, if confirmed, make sure that we get the
valuable intelligence while at the same time not pulling
innocent Americans into this database?
Admiral Maguire. Senator Wyden, the National
Counterterrorism Center, in particular the folks who work in
TIDE, have got a very disciplined process. They've been trained
and they work closely to make sure that we are adhering to the
law. We also have a very good legal team that makes sure that
we are in compliance.
For the number of folks that are in there, there had to be
a terrorism nexus. There is an annual audit in TIDE that is
conducted by those at the National Counterterrorism Center, and
if they find something that's in that center that should not
be, then that individual or that process is removed.
So to me, I look at two things. One, my job potentially as
the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, if
confirmed, is to do everything I can to make sure that I keep
the country safe. In addition to that, as an American I need to
make sure that we stay true to our American values and protect
civil liberties and our rights, and I intend to do that.
Senator Wyden. I'll ask you some more questions about that.
One question for you, Ms. McCarthy. When the CIA ran its
torture program, it told our ambassadors that they couldn't
discuss it with anybody at the State Department. Now, it's
I&R's job to support our ambassadors and make sure that the
Department reviews intelligence activities, including covert
actions. Can you tell us, consistent with the fact that this is
an open session, how are you going to make sure that happens?
Ms. McCarthy. Senator, thank you for your question. That is
a very important function that I&R serves, is to ensure that
our ambassadors understand their roles in intelligence
oversight, because they play a very important role in actually
concurring or nonconcurring with these sorts of operations. And
I will take that job very seriously and ensure that I&R
continues to provide that training and regular intelligence
update on a 7 by 24 basis, to ensure that they know everything
they need to know in making these decisions that are based on
risk.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Cornyn.
Senator Cornyn. Congratulations to both of you on your
nominations. Admiral, it was good to visit with you yesterday.
As I told you then, the fact that you come highly recommended
by Admiral McRaven and I know worked side by side with him for
maybe 35 years----
Admiral Maguire. Yes, sir.
Senator Cornyn [continuing]. Has a lot of significance to
me. But I appreciate the chance to visit a little bit
yesterday.
But you talked about your long-term service in the military
and the fact you've developed very good relationships with
others like the chief of staff or the SecDef and others.
Obviously, your role at CTC will be different. You'll be
focused on terrorism threats, as opposed to, let's say,
existential threats to the United States Government.
How do you view that in the larger context of national
security? As an isolated focus, or is it somehow--is there a
continuum when you look at the range of threats confronting the
United States?
Admiral Maguire. Well, Senator Cornyn, I look at it this
way. I've got close personal relationships, as you know, with
the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman, the Undersecretary of
Defense for Intelligence, and others, the JSOC commander, the
SOCOM commander, the CENTCOM commander. So as far as that side,
the part of the house that's really doing the kinetic work,
I've got very close relationships.
As the director of the National Counterterrorism Center and
also as really the director of strategic operational planning
in the whole of government, I need to go out and make sure that
I have the relationships and capitalize on the relationships
that are already there with the other members of the
interagency, as well as the Legislative Branch, and to bring
the whole of government to that.
So I think that, as I said, statutes give you authority,
but trust and partnerships produce results, and leadership is
all about results. So I intend to, no, not take for granted the
relationships I have already, but actually focus on renewing
and building relationships with the other leaders and the other
members of the intelligence community to make sure that we have
a whole-of-government approach in this counterterrorism
enterprise.
Senator Cornyn. Before 9/11, or I should say after 9/11,
our 9/11 Commission documented the stovepipes that we had,
particularly between law enforcement and our intelligence
community, in identifying security threats and sharing of
information across the government. Sometimes I worry, because
the intelligence community is so large, with 17 different
components and now post-9/11 with new layers of responsibility,
like the ODNI, that we are creating more bureaucracy and
stovepipes within the intelligence community.
Are those concerns justified in your view or not?
Admiral Maguire. I think you've always got to be careful
and be mindful that people have a tendency sometimes not to
share. But I think that the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism
Prevention Act did a very good job of giving the authorities to
the National Counterterrorism Center.
You know, as the primary organization in the United States
for analyzing and integrating intelligence acquired or actually
possessed by the United States, the job of the National
Counterterrorism Center is not only to possess it, but to
ensure that all stakeholders, everybody who has a need to know
and a requirement to do their job, whether at the kinetic side
of the house or the non-kinetic side of the house, has access
to and receives the information.
So I think that you must always be mindful. The lessons of
9/11 are still clear to me. I grew up in New York City. As a
young boy, I watched the Twin Towers go up. Three weeks after I
got my first star, I saw them go down. So it's very, very real
to me.
And I think it's absolutely essential that we share within
the intelligence community stovepipes, but also, to Vice
Chairman Warner's question earlier, we need to make sure that
we also share with our partners and our allies. Because you
never know where the information is going to come from, and
information and intelligence are key and essential to the
success of this campaign.
Senator Cornyn. Admiral and Ms. McCarthy, I'd like to get
both of you to respond to this. Do you view it as part of your
responsibility to develop a consensus when it comes to
intelligence? Because rarely is intelligence a lead pipe cinch.
In other words, it's rarely for certain. That's why the
intelligence community talks about ``we assess'' this, that,
and the other, ``we have this level of confidence'' and the
like.
But what is the--Ms. McCarthy maybe you could start: What's
your role in trying to develop consensus? Or do you feel like
you have to present competing points of view and opinions and
perspectives from different segments of the intelligence
community?
Ms. McCarthy. Senator Cornyn, I&R has a long history of
being an independent actor and providing independent analysis,
and many times has been at odds with--I mean, dating back to
the Vietnam War--has been at odds with some of its counterparts
in the IC.
The good news is that the IC is an environment where you
can have those discussions. There's processes in place to
ensure that competing views are represented, whether they are
in briefs that go to the President, the President Daily Brief,
or mostly through the National Intelligence Estimates through
the NIC. And so there's always an opportunity to provide
competing views.
So I don't believe, should I be confirmed, that my role at
I&R will necessarily be getting consensus for the position that
we may take on an intelligence issue, but certainly ensuring
that it's represented and heard and represented in those
documents that are shared across the IC.
Senator Cornyn. Admiral.
Admiral Maguire. Senator Cornyn, I think that's why we're
here. When I was in a leadership position, I always asked my
staff: I want something that's well staffed and I want a
coordinated, recommended opinion from the staff, not give it to
me and have it sorted out.
I mean, as we know from the lessons from 9/11, we had
different departments and agencies providing the information to
the White House, and the White House had to sort it out. That
didn't work so good.
So the obligation to make sure that there is a concerted
and a focused recommendation to both the Executive Branch and
to the Legislative Branch is one that I take seriously and will
do my darnedest to deliver.
Thank you.
Senator Cornyn. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator King.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, I want to thank you for your willingness to serve.
Second, I want to emphasize that you two are taking on two of
the most important jobs in the United States Government. The
responsibility is awesome and incredibly important. In an age
of terrorism, and we are not out of the age of terrorism,
intelligence is the first line of defense. If we don't know
what's going to happen, it's going to be very difficult to
prevent. So intelligence is incredibly important.
I am going to now ask a couple of questions that may sound
topical, but my colleagues will testify that I've been asking
these same questions for five years. They have nothing to do
with who's President.
The grave danger in intelligence is shading the data to
meet the perceived policy needs of whoever is in charge, and
this goes back as far as we can go. In fact, I would recommend
to you H.R. McMaster's book, ``Dereliction of Duty,'' the
incredibly insightful account of what happened in Vietnam and
the failure in many ways of communication to the higher
echelons, to the policy makers.
So, Admiral Maguire, one of your strongest qualifications
may also be a disadvantage and that is your long career in the
military, where chain of command, following orders, is an
absolutely important part of the job. That's what you've been
trained to do for 30-plus years. Assure me that you are not
going to follow orders, that you are going to chase the
intelligence where it leads, report it as it appears, and not
shade any information because of pressure?
And it may not even be overt pressure. Often it's human
nature to want to give the boss what they want. So, it doesn't
have to be shade the material. You've got to work within your
agency to counteract the human tendency to provide information
that's pleasing to those higher up. Talk to me about that
issue?
Admiral Maguire. Well, Senator King, as I said, I don't
need any reminder about the stakes that the Nation is under.
I've lost friends in this fight and I realize that it's very
real. I concur with your comment that, although we've made
tremendous strides in the last 17 years, we're still posed
tremendous threats to the country.
My job as the Director, if confirmed, is to make sure that
I provide truthful and accurate information. And if not, then
the stakes could be we make a decision that is incorrect and it
could cause harm to the Nation and to our interests.
In addition to that, to lead the workforce--if I have a
workforce that has an opinion, for me to color or change that
opinion before it goes up above my level to more senior people,
I think I would completely lose the workforce. But most
importantly, if I colored any judgment or provided any
information to anybody that was not truthful and accurate and
something happened, then I also have to live with that. And
I've been to Arlington National Cemetery and to other
cemeteries around the country and I realize that, you know, I'm
here to make sure that I do my darnedest to defend the Nation
and to do what's right, and I intend to do that, sir.
Senator King. Thank you. I really appreciate that, and I
look forward to working with you in that capacity.
Admiral Maguire. Thank you, Senator King.
Senator King. Ms. McCarthy, the same kind of question. A
great quote from one of your predecessors. Mr. Ford said: ``The
analysts at I&R are a curmudgeon-like group who delight in
being different and getting to the body of something and not
caring what other people think.'' That was Carl Ford back in
2004.
I'm not sure you're sufficiently curmudgeon-like.
[Laughter.]
Assure me on that point.
Ms. McCarthy. Oh, I am curmudgeon-like. Senator, again,
should I be confirmed, I think I&R, that's their brand, is
independent analysis. They have a long and very respected
history of not being persuaded by those who may take on
positions----
Senator King. Many people feel in Iraq they got it better
than anybody else.
Ms. McCarthy. I think the record shows that they did get it
better than anyone else, and they went through the IC's
processes to assure that, certainly, that information was
shared, and then certainly it's up to the policy maker to
determine what they're going to do with that.
Senator King. But one line, though, your last sentence of
your opening statement: ``Our intelligence activities must
support our foreign policy and national security objectives.''
I hope you mean by providing good intelligence, not providing
justification for objectives that somebody else has set.
Ms. McCarthy. Absolutely, sir. This is not to shade the
intelligence to support our foreign policy objectives, but to
provide our foreign policy decision-makers with the truth.
Senator King. Well, the other piece in your answers--and
again, it's good news, bad news--you mentioned the proximity to
the Secretary of State. You use that term, ``proximity.''
That's good news; that means you're close to policy makers. The
bad news is you could be subject to the kind of pressure--
subtle, not necessarily overt--to shade the data.
Give me your thoughts.
Ms. McCarthy. So, Senator, again, I think all of my
predecessors had that relationship with the Secretary and have
had a history of not necessarily bending to political or
positions that may not be in line with what the intelligence
shows.
So again, I believe that my access to the Secretary and
policy makers is going to help me understand more about what
their priorities are, so that I can then work within I&R and
across the intelligence community to ensure that collections
are then focused on these areas, so that we can provide him or
her with the truth. And so, proximity is more about being able
to guide collections than it is about providing them what they
want to hear.
Senator King. Well, I appreciate again both of you being
willing to take on this job. If you're ever in doubt, the
actions of Dan Coats last week are a demonstration of how these
jobs should be done.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Senator King. I will say that
Senator King's question was a first for me; it's the first time
I've ever heard a nominee questioned because they weren't
curmudgeon enough to match that of the Senator.
Senator King. I said I worried--I also said in the hearing
I worried that Dan Coats was too nice a guy, so.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Burr. Vice Chairman.
Vice Chairman Warner. I would simply say, I think you've
heard from a lot of us, we're counting on you both to be
straightforward, speak truth to power, make sure that you're
not influenced by political--I think you both bring remarkable
records and I just want to go on record, Mr. Chairman, as I
hope we can move these nominees as quickly as possible, and
appreciate you holding this hearing.
Chairman Burr. Mark, thank you.
It's the intent of the Chair to actually do that, to move
these nominees, hopefully, out of committee next week with the
committee's help. And I want to thank--for planning purposes--
thank all of you. But, for planning purposes, any member of the
committee who wishes to submit questions for the record after
today's hearing, please do so by the close of business today. I
just want to reiterate that.
To both of you, thank you. And, Joe, I got to tell you that
I am a morning prolific reader. I come in early, try to get it
out of the way before our day job starts. The questions that
you heard on size and, Ms. McCarthy, the amount of analysts--
trust me, if you're in Washington today and you're an analyst,
if you're not employed, something is really, really bad-wrong,
because we have hired a boatload across all the agencies.
When this committee sort of looks at the landscape and sees
all of those, we automatically respond to every agency: Have
you looked at your size? Have you looked at the requirements?
Does it match?
But I got to tell you, Joe, that, you know, any morning I
could get up and I could read six products on the same thing,
and I don't look at it and say that that's not valuable to have
six different analysts. But do remember that the root product
they work from is the product that comes out of NCTC. So the
accuracy on the front end is that much more important because
you've got other folks that are dicing and slicing that. And
it's those products that find its way to my desk, to the
President's desk, to the Vice Chairman's desk, that influence
then the policy decisions that we make.
So you're right. I'm grateful to you. Accuracy is
incredibly important. If we're going to screw up, let's all
screw up together. But let's make sure that it was our intent
to get it right. And that way, whether its I&R or any other
piece of the IC community, the basis with which they have
analyzed product and produced reports for policymakers comes
from credible, quality foundational reporting that's done by
NCTC.
So I want to thank both of you for your willingness to
serve, for your willingness to expose yourself to our committee
members. We will move your nominations as quickly as the Senate
can possibly do, which is not as fast as we might wish, but the
Vice Chairman and I will try to facilitate that as fast as we
can.
Once again, thank you to you and your families.
This hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:48 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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