Hearings
Hearing Type:
Open
Date & Time:
Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 9:00am
Location:
Hart 216
Witnesses
Full Transcript
[Senate Hearing 115-100]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-100
OPEN HEARING ON THE NOMINATION
OF SUSAN GORDON TO BE PRINCIPAL DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE AT THE
OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL
INTELLIGENCE PRECEDED BY ROBERT P. STORCH
TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL
SECURITY AGENCY, AND ISABEL PATELUNAS
TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE
AND ANALYSIS AT THE DEPARTMENT
OF THE TREASURY
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2017
__________
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence
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SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina, Chairman
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Vice Chairman
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
MARCO RUBIO, Florida RON WYDEN, Oregon
SUSAN COLLINS, Maine MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
ROY BLUNT, Missouri ANGUS KING, Maine
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
TOM COTTON, Arkansas KAMALA HARRIS, California
JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio
CHARLES SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona, Ex Officio
JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio
----------
Chris Joyner, Staff Director
Michael Casey, Minority Staff Director
Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
----------
JULY 19, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Burr, Hon. Richard, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from North Carolina. 1
Warner, Hon. Mark R., Vice Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Virginia 3
WITNESSES
Storch, Robert P., Nominated to be Inspector General of the
National Security Agency....................................... 5
Prepared statement........................................... 8
Patelunas, Isabel, Nominated to be Assistant Secretary of
Treasury for Intelligence and Analysis......................... 5
Prepared statement........................................... 15
Gordon, Susan M., Nominated to be Principal Deputy Director of
National Intelligence.......................................... 31
Prepared statement........................................... 35
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
Cipher Brief article dated July 19, 2017, titled ``The Great
Expectations for Susan M. Gordon''............................. 28
Questionnaires for Completion by Presidential Nominees........... 46
Prehearing Questions and Responses............................... 96
Questions for the Record......................................... 140
OPEN HEARING ON THE NOMINATION OF SUSAN GORDON TO BE PRINCIPAL
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE AT THE OFFICE OF THE
DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE PRECEDED BY ROBERT P. STORCH TO BE
INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, AND ISABEL PATELUNAS
TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS AT THE
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
----------
WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2017
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:06 a.m. in Room
SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard Burr
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Committee Members Present: Senators Burr, Warner,
Feinstein, Wyden, Heinrich, King, and Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BURR, CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Chairman Burr. I'd like to call this confirmation hearing
to order.
I understand the Vice Chairman is in the building, so he
should be here before I finish my opening statement. I'd like
to welcome all members.
And I know this is out of the ordinary to do these in the
morning. But the schedule right now doesn't give us the luxury
of taking an afternoon as we get ready for our authorization
bill.
So I'd like to welcome our witnesses today: Robert Storch,
President Trump's nominee to be the next Inspector General of
the National Security Agency; and Isabel Patelunas, the
President's nominee to be the next Assistant Secretary of
Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Treasury.
Robert and Isabel, congratulations to both of you on your
nominations. I'd like start, though, by recognizing the
families that you've brought here with you today. Robert, I
understand your wife, Sara, is here and your two children
Charlotte and Hannah. Would you--guys, thank you for your
commitment to your dad and to your mother, because she has
traveled extensively with him and is a partner both in life and
in work, as I understand.
Sara, you must be a strong woman.
And Isabel, I believe you brought your husband, Paul, here
as well as your sons Brian and Brandon, Correct? Good. Just
Brian. Well, we welcome both of you.
Both of you have served your country with distinction in
your previous posts, primarily Department of Justice for you,
Robert, and CIA for you, Isabel. And we appreciate your
continued willingness to serve.
Our goal in conducting this hearing is to enable the
Committee to consider Mr. Storch and Ms. Patelunas'
qualifications and to allow a thoughtful deliberation by our
members.
Robert already has provided substantive written responses
to 77 questions presented by the Committee and its members,
while Isabel has answered 63. Today, of course, the members
will be able to ask additional questions and to hear firsthand
from Mr. Storch and Ms. Patelunas in this open session.
Mr. Storch graduated magna cum laude from Harvard College
in 1982 and earned his J.D. from Columbia Law School in 1985.
He began his legal career as a clerk for U.S. District Judge
William Keller in Los Angeles, California.
Following his clerkship, Mr. Storch worked at Covington and
Burling before joining the Department of Justice, where he
worked for over 24 years. Mr. Storch was an assistant U.S.
attorney for over 17 years, working on both criminal and civil
cases.
Robert held a variety of leadership roles in the U.S.
Attorney's Office, including anti-terrorism coordinator, deputy
criminal chief, counsel to the United States attorney appellate
chief, senior litigation counsel, and civil rights and hate
crime coordinator.
In 2012, Mr. Storch joined the Office of Inspector General
at the Department of Justice, where he served as counselor to
the IG, the OIG whistleblower ombudsman, and acting deputy IG.
In 2015, Mr. Storch was selected to serve as DOJ's deputy
inspector general. And I think you told me when we met that you
kept the ombud--you kept the whistleblower thing with you. We
thank you for that.
Ms. Patelunas graduated from the University of Notre Dame
in 1989, received her master's in international relations from
the University of Maryland in 1987. Ms. Patelunas began her
career at the CIA in 1989 and is a member of the Senior
Intelligence Service at the CIA, where she served in a variety
of leadership roles, including deputy director of CIA's Office
of Middle East and North Africa Analysis and director of
advanced analysis training program.
Ms. Patelunas also worked in the National
Counterproliferation Center and the weapons intelligence
nonproliferation--Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation, and
Arms Control offices. Ms. Patelunas also completed a rotation
at the ODNI, serving as the director of the President's daily
brief staff. Isabel currently is the chair of the CIA's
Publications Review Board.
Robert, independent and empowered inspector generals are
critical to the integrity and the efficient management of the
intelligence community. I would also note that this is Robert's
third nomination to a position in under a year, an indication
of not only bipartisan support, but a commitment to the post as
well.
And, Isabel, as you and I have discussed, you've been asked
to lead the Treasury Department's intelligence arm at a time of
profound threat and challenge.
As both of you are aware, we're facing threats from state
and non-state actors alike and are engaged in a robust debate
at home on the scope and scale of intelligence collection and
what authorities are right, appropriate and lawful. I expect
both of you to support the government's mission to protect the
Nation in the face of these threats, while maintaining an
unwavering respect for the rule of law. I have complete trust
that both of you will lead the community with integrity and
will ensure that the intelligence enterprise operates lawfully,
ethically, and morally.
As I've mentioned to other nominees during their nomination
hearings, I can assure you that this Committee will continue to
faithfully follow its charter and conduct vigorous and real-
time oversight over the intelligence community, its operations,
and its activities. We will ask difficult and probing questions
of you and your staff, and we will expect honest, complete, and
timely responses.
I look forward to supporting your nominations and ensuring
their consideration without delay. I want to thank you again
for being here, for your years of service to the country, and I
look forward to your testimony.
I'd like to recognize the Vice Chairman for any comments he
might have.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
VIRGINIA
Vice Chairman Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome,
Mr. Storch and Ms. Patelunas, and congratulations on your
nominations.
Mr. Storch, you have served as Deputy Inspector General of
the Department of Justice, so I know you understand well the
functions of the Inspector General. But if you are confirmed as
the Inspector General of the National Security Agency, you'll
be charged with overseeing a large and complex and necessarily
secretive organization.
Because of the nature of the work of the NSA, you will have
a higher level of responsibility to ensure that the agency's
programs and activities are effective, appropriate, and comport
with U.S. law and regulations. In today's hearing, I would like
to hear reassurances that you will take this duty on with the
gravity and sense of purpose it requires.
We all know the NSA is home to some of the world's greatest
minds in the field of cryptology. They continue to improve our
ability to understand the plans and intentions of our
adversaries in order to protect and defend this Nation. As they
harness the power of new technology and data analytics, we must
be careful to ensure that the clearly defined line between our
adversaries and our citizens is not crossed. Part of your
charge will be to confirm that it is not.
I also very much appreciate your background as related to
whistleblower protections. I know the Chairman's already
mentioned this. You stated that one of your bedrock principles
is, quote, ``whistleblowers perform a valuable service to the
agency and to the public,'' unquote. I agree with that
sentiment, and I'm not sure that we have given them adequate
protections, in the IC that they deserve.
Today, I'll ask you about some of the proposals this
Committee is considering to enhance those protections, to
ensure that anyone that does come forward through approved
processes will not suffer reprisals as a result.
Mr. Storch, I look forward to today's discussion and
working with you, if confirmed.
Ms. Patelunas, your experience at the Central Intelligence
Agency will serve well if confirmed to the position of
Undersecretary of Treasury for Intelligence and Analysis. Your
28-year career at the CIA is impressive and includes a wide
variety of important positions and responsibilities. If
confirmed as Undersecretary, you will have significant
opportunities to continue your contributions to our Nation's
security.
This morning, I'd like to talk more about your background
in threat finance and financial intelligence. The past decade
has seen a dramatic increase in the leveraging of financial
tools to counter threats. That includes following the money to
counter terrorist groups, as well as the use of sanctions to
influence other Nations' behaviors.
At the same time, our adversaries are constantly developing
new and innovative ways to evade our detection. It is vital
that the United States stay one step ahead of our enemies in
this regard.
I'll expect to hear your plans for ensuring that we
maintain our competitive edge when it comes to collecting,
analyzing, and responding to matters of financial intelligence.
Additionally, this Committee is deeply engaged with its
investigation into Russian meddling in our 2016 elections.
Treasury has a role in supporting this effort. This morning, I
want to hear assurances from you that you will fully support
any request this Committee makes of the Office of Intelligence
and Analysis.
Ms. Patelunas, Mr. Storch, I note that you are both, as is
the nominee that we'll hear from in the next panel, Sue Gordon,
career public servants. You are both highly qualified for the
positions to which you have been nominated.
Today, perhaps more so than in the past, I believe that it
is especially important to make a point of saying thank you to
the men and women of the intelligence community for the work
that they do each and every day to keep our Nation safe. We
seldom hear about your successes or your sacrifices, but
members of this Committee see your dedication and hard work. So
I want to thank both of you for accepting these new
opportunities to serve our country.
But I also have something to ask in return. I ask that you
commit today that you will always speak truth to power by
giving your best honest assessment and speaking that truth and
telling it, telling it like it is to those in power, whether
they want to hear it or not.
I'll ask for your assurances that you will cooperate fully
and unreservedly with any requests from this Committee by
providing documents, e-mails, cables and other materials as
requested.
And I'll ask for your promise that, if confirmed, you will
faithfully represent the professional men and women of the
intelligence community with dedication and integrity every day
that you're charged.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the hearing.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
Mr. Storch, would you stand, please? Would you raise your
right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Storch. I do.
Chairman Burr. Please be seated.
Ms. Patelunas, would you please stand and raise your right
hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Ms. Patelunas. I do.
Chairman Burr. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT P. STORCH, NOMINATED TO BE INSPECTOR
GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY
Chairman Burr. To you, Mr. Storch--and then I'll come to
you, Mrs. Patelunas--I'll ask you to answer five standard
questions that the Committee poses to each nominee who appears
before us. They just simply require a yes or no answer.
One, do you agree to appear before the Committee, here and
in other venues when invited?
Mr. Storch. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials
from your office to appear before the Committee and designated
staff when invited?
Mr. Storch. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to provide documents or other
materials requested by the Committee in order for it to carry
out its oversight and legislative responsibilities?
Mr. Storch. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Will you both ensure that your office and
your staff provide such materials to the Committee when
requested?
Mr. Storch. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to inform and fully brief, to
the fullest extent possible, all members of this Committee of
intelligence activities and covert action, rather than only the
Chairman and the Vice Chairman?
Mr. Storch. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF ISABEL PATELUNAS, NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT
SECRETARY OF TREASURY FOR INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS
Chairman Burr. Ms. Patelunas, the same questions. Do you
agree to appear before the Committee, here or in other venues,
when invited?
Ms. Patelunas. Yes, sir, I do.
Chairman Burr. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials
from your office to appear before the Committee and designated
staff when invited?
Ms. Patelunas. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to provide documents or any
other materials requested by the Committee in order to carry
out its oversight and legislative responsibilities?
Ms. Patelunas. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Will you both ensure that your office and
your staff--will you ensure that your office and your staff
provide such materials to the Committee when requested?
Ms. Patelunas. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to
the fullest extent possible all members of the Committee of the
intelligence activities and covert action, rather than just the
Chair and Vice Chair?
Ms. Patelunas. Yes, sir, I do.
Chairman Burr. With that, I thank you, and we'll proceed to
opening statement. Mr. Storch, you are recognized for your
statement.
Mr. Storch. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Burr, Vice Chairman Warner, and members of the
Committee: Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today
regarding my nomination to be the Inspector General at the
National Security Agency. I believe that this position presents
an exciting opportunity to further independent oversight at a
critically important government agency.
I would like to take the opportunity to recognize my family
and others who have come to be with me today: my brilliant and
wonderful wife of more than 25 years, Sara Lord, and our
children, Charlotte and Hannah, who, as I always tell them, are
the center of the universe. I would like to thank my other
family, colleagues, and friends for being here with me today.
I want to express my great appreciation to my Inspector
General, Michael Horowitz. I've had the privilege of working
side by side with him, and I learn from him on a daily basis.
He provides, I believe, a tremendous example, both as to how to
conduct vigorous, independent oversight and how an IG should be
responsive to Congress.
I also want to thank you, Chairman Burr, for taking the
time out of your busy schedule to meet with me yesterday. And,
Vice Chairman Warner, I greatly appreciate the efforts of your
staff to schedule a meeting as well.
I'm sorry there wasn't time, given the prompt scheduling of
the hearing--which, let me quickly say, I appreciate very
much--for me to meet in advance of the hearing with you and
with the other members of the Committee. But if confirmed, I
would welcome the opportunity to meet with each of you and your
staffs on a regular basis.
I believe strongly in the importance of Congressional
oversight, which is particularly critical in an area where so
much of what happens occurs outside the public eye.
As this Committee well knows, in 2014 Congress determined
that the NSA IG should be a presidentially appointed, Senate-
confirmed position, clearly reflecting the importance of
independent oversight and responsiveness to Congress. I hope
that, if confirmed, my background would position me well to
work with the staff of the OIG to meet the challenges of this
position.
As detailed in my prehearing submissions, I spent some two
dozen years working as a Federal prosecutor at two United
States attorney's offices and at the DOJ here in Washington.
This taught me a great deal about how to gather and consider
evidence, about following the evidence wherever it leads, and
about pursuing allegations and outcomes vigorously but fairly
and in the interest of justice.
Immediately following the September 11 attacks, I was
selected as my district's initial Anti-Terrorism Coordinator,
working closely with criminal and intelligence components of
the FBI and other agencies in helping to organize and direct
our antiterrorism efforts and standing up our first Anti-
Terrorism Task Force.
In 2012, my wife and I decided to move back to Washington
and I accepted a position in the front office at the OIG. One
of the things I came to understand early on is that OIGs are
part of their agencies, but they're also separate, our
independent oversight role requiring that we maintain the
distance necessary for our work.
I've been involved in reviewing a number of reports,
examining the exercise of national security authorities by the
FBI and DOJ as well as their interaction with other parts of
the intelligence community. I also have participated in the
deputies' meetings of the IC IG forum and attended its
conferences.
If confirmed, I hope that my experiences and perspective as
a prosecutor and at the OIG would be helpful in working with
the personnel of the NSA OIG to carry out the significant
responsibilities entrusted to it by the Congress.
If confirmed, I would anticipate meeting regularly with
personnel from across the OIG to facilitate open communications
and obtain their perspectives. One area that I know to be of
importance for all OIGs is furthering whistleblower rights and
protections. As was mentioned, at DOJ we've developed a robust
program that's built on one bedrock principle: Whistleblowers
perform a valuable public service to the agency and the public
when they come forward with what they reasonably believe to be
evidence of wrongdoing, and they never should suffer reprisal
for doing so.
I founded and still serve as chair of the CIGIE working
group in this area and have been pleased to work with the
Congress on it, including helping to organize a program with
the bipartisan Senate Whistleblower Protection Caucus, at which
we were grateful to hear from Senator Grassley and you, Senator
Wyden. If confirmed, I will do everything in my power to
further whistleblower rights and protections at the NSA.
In closing, I cannot think of an agency with a more
important mission than the NSA and I have tremendous respect
for the dedicated men and women who are critical to its
success. I would be privileged to have the opportunity to lead
the NSA OIG to further the integrity and efficiency of the
agency's operations, which, as the NSA's name makes clear, are
essential to our national security.
Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Storch follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Mr. Storch.
Ms. Patelunas, floor is yours.
Ms. Patelunas. Thank you, Chairman Burr, Vice Chairman
Warner and members of the Committee, for allowing me to appear
before you as the nominee for Assistant Secretary of Treasury
for Intelligence and Analysis. I also appreciate the
opportunity to have met with several of you earlier this week.
I am honored to have been nominated for this position by
President Trump, and with the support of Secretary Mnuchin,
Director of National Intelligence Coats, and Undersecretary of
Terrorism Finance and Intelligence Mandelker.
None of the steps in the journey to this Committee room
would have been possible without my family. They have been my
unfailing supporters throughout my career. First, my husband,
Paul, of three decades has supported me and has eaten many
meals alone during my 28 years at CIA. He has been my steadfast
partner in raising my two wonderful sons, Brian and Brandon.
Those three men have been my cheerleaders and my conscience,
the reason I work so hard to protect our great Nation, and the
ones who have helped me to balance being both a hard-charging
public servant and a sports and band mom.
My mom, Carol Keenan, was a role model as a working mother
and ensured that I always took care of myself. My father,
Thomas Keenan, started me on the road to public service.
Although he lost a hard-fought battle to cancer over a decade
ago, I feel his strong presence and his commitment to his
country, first as an Air Force staff sergeant in Korea,
followed by a 45-year career as a beloved high school social
studies teacher. He is indeed smiling today.
My brothers, Kevin and Sean, have always supported me
personally, professionally. Sean's wonderful wife Beth and
their three children, Ryan, Victoria, and Andrew, are here as
well today. My sister Chris, also a teacher, and her wonderful
husband John and four children were unable to attend today. I
also want to thank friends and coworkers who have been so
supportive during my career.
The Keenan and Patelunas families have a profound love of
God, country, and family, and have never been embarrassed by
our patriotism and dedication to public service. This started
with my grandfather, who served in both the U.S. Army and Navy
and as a Philadelphia policeman. My father, uncles, father-in-
law, brother Sean, and my nephew Danny all served in the
military. My mother, father, sister, and brother spent many
years in public education.
If confirmed as assistant secretary, I will continue to
strive to be an efficient and effective public servant, to use
taxpayer dollars wisely, to leave a lasting positive impact on
those whom I serve and those who I serve with, to have a bias
and a passion for action and getting the mission done. And
finally, I will be devoted to developing a strong and expert
workforce and to taking actions to leave that job to my
successor in even better shape than I received it.
Twenty eight years as a CIA analyst and manager have
prepared me well to lead OIA. And if confirmed, I'm looking
forward to taking on that important mission, one in which we
cannot fail: stemming the flow of funding to those who wish to
do our Nation harm and remaining vigilant to threats against
our financial infrastructure.
The threats are many, but the dedicated women and men of
OIA are more than up to the challenge. OIA, because of its
position within Treasury and access to expertise and
information, has been a leader in threat finance issues. I feel
that the office's work is becoming even more important as the
U.S. Government is directing more efforts to take financial
action against those who wish to do us harm.
OIA has other important missions that I look forward to
leading. It is very serious about information sharing and
focuses on relationship building, partnership and integration.
OIA has an important mission to ensure that its people,
infrastructure and data are secure and protected from insider
threats.
If confirmed, I will use my expertise, leadership and
strong analytic tradecraft to continue to position the Office
of Intelligence and Analysis to stem current threats, as well
as to position it well to take on future threats. I am
committed to being an effective public servant, having a bias
for collaborative action, working with colleagues throughout
the United States Government, including this Committee, and
ultimately leaving OIA even stronger than it is today.
Thank you again for your time, and I look forward to
answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Patelunas follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Burr. Thank you to both of you for your
statements.
Before I recognize myself for questions, let me inform the
members that our plan is to have the Committee vote on these
nominations on Tuesday, July 25th. Also, if any members wish to
submit questions for the record, please do so by the close of
business today.
With that, Senators will be recognized for up to five
minutes by seniority.
Ms. Patelunas, we live in an innovative world where
nefarious state and non-state actors continue to identify new
and discreet ways to finance illegitimate and illicit
activities. How's the Treasury's Office of Intelligence and
Analysis poised to assess cash-free financial networks like
Bitcoin and other web-based currencies?
Ms. Patelunas. Sir, thank you for that question, and we
discussed this a little bit yesterday. The good news is that
there is very deep expertise in the Office of Intelligence and
Analysis. Because their portfolios are niche analysis, they
really are able to become deep experts in a wide variety of
financial intelligence, both gathering and analysis, and they
have a strong program of mentoring, of training, and they go
out on rotations to further their knowledge. So in many of my
discussions with the officers and the leadership over in OIA, I
feel very strongly that we are well-positioned to go after a
wide variety of actors, including crypto-financial issues.
Chairman Burr. Great, thank you.
Mr. Storch, the Inspector General at NSA is going to be
responsible for overseeing a large organization at multiple
physical locations, probably as challenging as any agency
that's out there.
How do you plan to ensure that all NSA employees and
contractors are fully aware of the function of the NSA OIG,
regardless of their physical location?
Mr. Storch. Thank you very much, Chairman Burr. I very much
appreciate the question.
You know, it obviously is incredibly important that an OIG
get out word to all of the employees regarding what the OIG
does and how to provide information. I think that's
particularly important in a world like that of the NSA.
And so I can just tell you, what we've done at the
Department of Justice is we've employed virtually every
strategy available to us, honestly. We've done videos. We've
done brochures, flyers, put things out on our Internet. We've
done programs within the agency. We've worked with the agency
to have material posted in buildings so that there are flyers
on how to provide information to the OIG and also related to
what to do if there's reprisal for doing that or for providing
any whistleblower information. And so we've even gone as far as
to use social media, and we have a Twitter account and we've
tweeted out information on how to provide information.
So, you know, no OIG can function without information and
it's important that people within an agency like the NSA
understand that there are avenues for them to come forward when
they see something they think is wrong; and that they're taken
seriously; those complaints are reviewed thoroughly; and that
people get back to them, to the extent they can; and also that
they don't suffer reprisal.
So I think you employ a multi-tiered strategy to try to get
out the word so that people understand what the OIG does, and
you do it any way you can.
Chairman Burr. What do see as your biggest challenge of
being the NSA Inspector General?
Mr. Storch. Thank you very much for the question. It's
something I've thought a lot about, and we chatted a little
about it yesterday. You know, I think that--I think there are a
few. One is obviously the transition to being a presidentially
appointed, Senate-confirmed IG. Clearly, that reflects
Congress's intent that there be aggressive, appropriate,
independent oversight and responsiveness to Congress in
performing that. That's something we certainly do at the
Department of Justice and certainly, if confirmed, something I
would intend to do in my position at the NSA. So that'll be a
change, but one that I'm confident, working with the good folks
at the OIG, that we'll be able to tackle.
Another one that we talked about yesterday is the pace of
change and dealing with that. Particularly in a place like the
NSA, where technology--where things are changing on a constant
basis, it's really important that an OIG be agile, be nimble,
and provide its reviews in a prompt fashion.
Frankly, this is a challenge we face at our OIG and I think
at all OIGs. I thought about it some since we chatted
yesterday. There's a tension, I think, between OIGs being
thorough in their work and being authoritative, but not taking
so long to do it that it no longer is relevant or impactful.
And so I think that challenge is particularly great at an
agency like the NSA, which is in the business of dealing with
technology and change and things that are moving constantly.
And so that's something we'll have to work at. I'm sure they're
working at it now, and hopefully I'll be able to aid in that
process.
And finally, you've mentioned it, I've mentioned it:
whistleblowers. I think they're fundamental to the whole OIG
system. You know, since I've come over to the OIG my impression
is really that the agencies we serve are really just too big
and their programs are just too varied for oversight to really
work effectively without people who are at the front lines
feeling comfortable coming forward with information.
That doesn't mean they're always right, but we want to make
sure that they can come forward, that they have means to come
forward, and that they know that that's going to be taken
seriously. I think that's a challenge for all OIGs, is getting
that word out and not just having words and training, but
actually doing it in action and showing to whistleblowers that
we mean what we say, that we take the allegations seriously,
and that we're going to pursue them appropriately.
So those are all challenges that I think we would face.
Hopefully I'll be well-positioned to help achieve success with
them.
Chairman Burr. Thank you very much.
Vice Chairman.
Vice Chairman Warner. Ms. Patelunas, first, we--as I'm sure
you're aware, this Committee is deeply involved in the Russia
investigation. I just want to reiterate, should you be
confirmed, that we would want your cooperation as this
Committee continues to pursue all activities related to
Russia's 2016 intervention in our presidential elections, and
that will mean we would be working closely with your office.
Will you commit to continue to work with this Committee on
that investigation?
Ms. Patelunas. I certainly will, sir.
Vice Chairman Warner. You've got an extraordinarily
impressive background, 28 years at the CIA, and I see you've
had background doing the PDB, deputy director of the Middle
East Analysis Office, time at the National Counterproliferation
Center. Yet you don't have formal background in finance or
financial threats, financial crimes. Do you want to speak about
your background, how it might be suited for this particular
assignment?
Ms. Patelunas. So while I don't have a background in
terrorism threat financing, I spent about the first ten years
of my career doing nonproliferation work and looking at North
Korea, Russia, Iran, a variety of actors. And so a lot of what
we did, while we looked at, you know, building of weapon
systems, we also had to follow the money and look at how the
weapons were built.
So we did spend a lot of time supporting policymakers as
they were developing sanctions packages and looking for other
opportunities to stem the flow of money in the proliferation
arena. So that's where my background is in that.
Vice Chairman Warner. We do think following the money in a
variety of these areas----
Ms. Patelunas. Right.
Vice Chairman Warner [continuing]. Is going to be very
important.
Mr. Storch, I appreciate your comments about
whistleblowers. I share your value in that role. We have seen
in the IC sometimes efforts where a whistleblower, rather than
being celebrated, actually ends up with demotions or a black
mark on their record.
One of the tools that have been used throughout the rest of
the Federal Government are the stay authority, which gives that
whistleblower some protection during the period of the
investigation. The IC is one area where we don't have that stay
authority. I know Senator Collins and I are working on
potentially changing that.
Do you think that stay authority that is granted to
whistleblowers in other parts of the Federal Government ought
to be granted to members of the IC?
Mr. Storch. Thank you very much for the question, Vice
Chairman Warner.
You know, as was mentioned from the beginning, we really
have put a great emphasis on whistleblower issues at DOJ OIG,
and after becoming deputy, in discussions with our IG, we
decided I would retain the ombudsperson role because of the
importance of that work to what we do.
We don't have stay authority at DOJ OIG. That doesn't mean
it's not a good idea. It's something that, honestly, I haven't
dealt with personally. OSC, obviously, has that ability in some
circumstances, in Title 5 cases.
So what I would appreciate the opportunity to do, if
confirmed, is to have the opportunity to consult with people in
the IC regarding how stay authority would play out and what the
different equities are there that might be present.
You know, one of the things I always want to be careful of
in my time in the OIG is not expressing opinions without having
the opportunity to really review the situation and provide an
authoritative answer. So I very much appreciate the question.
And what I would pledge to do, if confirmed, is to look further
into it, and would really appreciate the opportunity, and
welcome it, to work with you and the other members of the
Committee to discuss it.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, it's my initial impression that
it is a tool that we ought to grant to the IC, but I'd be
anxious to get your reflections when you're--once you get
settled into this job.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Feinstein.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you very much. Thanks, Mr.
Chairman.
You both seem to be very well-qualified for your positions.
I look forward to supporting them.
Mr. Storch, I'd like to ask you a question. You look like a
pretty tough guy. And----
Mr. Storch. My wife might disagree, but----
Senator Feinstein [continuing]. I want to express a concern
I have about NSA. Beginning with Mr. Snowden, we have had three
major thefts of--people walking out with classified material. I
have spoken to the heads of the agency on a number of occasions
about it.
I think some things have been done, but not adequately.
This comes down to contractors, and the three big thefts are
done--were performed by contractors. I'd like to ask that you
take a look at that situation, evaluate the security at the
agency and the ability of people to walk in and out who are
contractors with classified materials. Would I have your
agreement to do so?
Mr. Storch. Absolutely, Senator. Really, the points you
make are very well-taken. Obviously, it's a great concern
whenever there are--whether it's contractors or others, where
there's information that's not properly secured.
I can't, frankly, imagine a place where that would be a
greater concern than the NSA. And so, you know, I absolutely
would pledge to you that that is something that we would
explore, and happy to engage with you and the other members of
the Committee on that.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you both for your professionalism. I've got a lot of
ground to cover in five minutes, so if you all could be brief,
that'd be great.
Mr. Storch, to begin with you, Senator Grassley and I are
co-chairs of the Whistleblower Caucus. And how important, in
your view, is it that whistleblower protections apply to
contractors?
Mr. Storch. Thank you very much for the question, Senator
Wyden. I mentioned--I recalled, we had the event with the
bipartisan Senate Whistleblower Caucus, and we very much
appreciated your and Senator Grassley's speaking at it.
You know, I think it's important that people throughout the
government, whether they be employees or whether they be
employed as contractors hired by the government, feel
comfortable coming forward with information. And honestly,
analytically it's difficult to see why there's a difference in
terms of the public benefit of coming forward. What may
different somewhat--may be different somewhat, is because of
the different relationships, what the appropriate remedies are
in different situations.
You know, on the Title 5 side at DOJ, as you know well, we
have the NDAA, recently expanded, and some very expansive
protection for contractors. On the intel side, I know PPD-19,
part B, regarding security clearances, has been applied to
contractors. But there are other places where I understand the
protections are not as great.
So it's a long answer. You asked me to be brief. The answer
is, I recognize the importance of it. Regarding the particular
protections, that's something that I would have to look at and
will be happy to do so.
Senator Wyden. You'll hear from me again on this topic. I
think it's got to be a priority.
Ms. Patelunas, you and I talked yesterday. You've been
nominated for a position that stands at the center of the
government's effort to understand Russian corruption, the way
they move funds illicitly, and its use of shell companies and
other forms of money laundering. Will you make this a top
priority?
Ms. Patelunas. As we discussed yesterday, sir, I will
certainly go back, I will work with the women and men of OIA
and do our best. And then, I actually welcome the opportunity
to come back and discuss it with you.
Shell companies are concerning. Again, they're--we need to
make sure that things that we can't see readily by nefarious
actors are not impacting our national security interests.
Senator Wyden. I still want to know from you before we vote
that this is going to be a top priority, number one.
Number two, will you make it a top priority, even if the
intelligence leads in the direction of Russian ties to the
President's business, family or campaign?
Ms. Patelunas. Sir, I will commit to making it a top
priority. And, as an intelligence official, we always believe
in unbiased intelligence and speaking truth to power. So I will
take the intelligence where it leads, sir.
Senator Wyden. Even if it leads in the direction of Russian
ties where I mentioned, the President's businesses, family or
campaign? I think you gave a good answer. I just want to make
sure we nail it down.
Ms. Patelunas. I will take the intelligence wherever it
goes. Again----
Senator Wyden. Okay.
Ms. Patelunas [continuing]. Unbiased analysis is the only
standard by which all intelligence officers----
Senator Wyden. How are you going to go about bringing
together foreign intelligence from the community, the
intelligence community, with financial intelligence from other
parts of the Treasury Department?
The reason that that's so important is it lets us connect
the dots here, which is absolutely key to following the money
and really understanding how Russia and other foreign money-
laundering corrupts our country.
So tell me, if you would, how you're going to bring
together the foreign intelligence from the IC with financial
intelligence from other parts of the Treasury Department?
Ms. Patelunas. So the beauty of Treasury being embedded--or
OIA being embedded in Treasury is that it does give us access
to a lot of data, and we all fall under the Terrorism and
Finance Intelligence Office under Undersecretary Mandelker, so
that gives us access.
The financial intelligence community is a very strong
community. I've talked to a number of them in preparation for
this hearing, and they work well together as a team to ensure
that we are putting all of the resources we have available, and
then thinking very smartly about how we pursue different leads.
So I again look forward to the challenge and to working with
you.
Senator Wyden. How do you intend to work with our allies in
bringing together the fullest possible picture of how Russian
governments go about undermining allies' democracy?
Ms. Patelunas. Well, it's my understanding that there are a
lot of well-established ties already. So I look forward to
working with allies and those who have--I mean, that's the
national security. That's how we work in making sure that we
have access to the appropriate data.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Patelunas. I look forward to that.
Chairman Burr. Senator Harris.
Senator Harris. Thank you.
Mr. Storch, as a prosecutor it is often the case that we
will respond after something has happened, and then that's when
our job kicks in. Will you talk with me a bit about how you
would divide your priorities in this role, if confirmed, as it
relates to prevention versus detection versus responding to a
whistleblower in cases that are brought to your attention?
Mr. Storch. Yes, of course. Thank you for the question,
Senator. You know, it really is a great point. You know, as
prosecutors you're coming in, you're coming in after the fact,
you're looking at a set of evidence, and then you're making
determinations as to whether to bring charges and how to pursue
them and how they should be resolved.
At the OIG, we do that sort of work, obviously, but we also
have a responsibility to get out information within the agency.
So for instance, we do things like fraud awareness briefings at
DOJ and things like that to get out information that can help
the agency in a preventative fashion.
You have to be careful, obviously, because we're not part
of the agency management. One of the things I've learned after
all those years as a prosecutor is that, at the OIG we refer to
the Department in the third person. We talk about ``it is doing
that'' or ``they are doing that,'' because, even though I still
am proud to work for the Department of Justice, I have a
different, independent role.
Having said that, there are ways to get out information so
that the agency can see what's coming and perhaps, you know,
take steps to address it.
One other thing we do that I'll mention, which is sort of a
hybrid, is in the course of reviews, if we come upon
information that we think the agency needs to address
immediately, we can issue management advisory memoranda. And as
you I'm sure know, under the IG Empowerment Act now, if we make
recommendations, within three days those actually are made
public.
And I think that's a very important tool and something that
I've seen us using increasingly during my time at the DOJ OIG,
because it provides us with a more time-sensitive way to get
information to the agency.
So a lot of the work is still reactive, but there are, I
think, ways to get out information to people about what we're
finding so that they can take action in a preventative way.
Senator Harris. Great. I appreciate that.
Mr. Storch. Yes, ma'am.
Senator Harris. Thank you.
And, Ms. Patelunas, you have an incredible amount of
experience in your background, but I don't see a lot in threat
finance. So can you talk a bit about how you will kind of get
up to speed on that, and in particular as it relates to, for
example, North Korea and its ballistic missile program and what
we can do to detect and figure out where the money is coming
from and stem the flow as it relates to sanctions and other
methods?
Ms. Patelunas. Well, one of the positions that wasn't
mentioned in my broad resume was that I was the chief of the
missile and space group, and we spent an awful lot of time on
North Korea.
So there are two aspects to it. The first is, of course,
the systems development, but the second and maybe more
important part was watching how the money flowed and all of the
different secondary and tertiary actors they used in enabling
that program.
It was very challenging work. It took a lot of painstaking
efforts to look at letters of credit and who those actors were.
So again, it's a long part of my history in the
nonproliferation world. Following the money is very important
and I've spent a lot of time doing that.
Now, on the terrorism side, I do have some work to do and I
will look forward to lots of briefings that will be queued up
if I'm confirmed.
Senator Harris. And I have no doubt you will be a fast
learner.
Ms. Patelunas. Thank you.
Senator Harris. And then, Leslie Ireland was dual-hatted
and had dual responsibilities in this position and at ODNI.
Ms. Patelunas. Correct.
Senator Harris. What is your perspective on what this will
be going forward if confirmed? Do you expect that you're going
to have both responsibilities? Or are they--are we going to
bring in someone else?
Ms. Patelunas. So I've talked to the ODNI about it. They
are in the middle of reviewing all of their positions,
including NIM positions, and they're really looking at savings.
I think they've had some feedback that maybe there's some
opportunities for leveraging some smaller staffs.
And so they're not going to make any decisions. They'll
talk to me when I get on board, and so we'll see. If the
position is still available, I think it's important for
Treasury to have a central role in that, but Treasury has a
very important and strong role in threat finance and so I am
committed to working with ODNI in whatever solutions they come
up with.
Senator Harris. And will you commit to reporting back to
this Committee if this becomes----
Ms. Patelunas. Absolutely.
Senator Harris [continuing]. Too much----
Ms. Patelunas. Either way, I will. Yes.
Senator Harris [continuing]. That the other position be
filled by a separate leader?
Ms. Patelunas. Correct.
Senator Harris. Okay. Thank you.
I have nothing else.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Senator Harris.
Before I dismiss you, Robert, I've got one more question.
Can you ever envision any work that the Inspector General would
do at NSA that wasn't relevant to the oversight
responsibilities of this Committee?
[Pause.]
Mr. Storch. Thank you very much for the question, Chairman
Burr. I'm pausing because it's a difficult question. I think
that, to the extent I understand the scope of the NSA IG's
work, that it would be relevant to this Committee. I don't want
to rule out, honestly, that there might be some review that
would be conducted or some particular issue that would perhaps
fall more closely under the jurisdiction of another of the
committees.
But I think as a general matter that's right. And it's
certainly something I would be happy to discuss with you
further regarding any specific matter should I be confirmed.
I will tell you, and I mean this sincerely, that I will
commit to this Committee that I will be responsive and engage
with you, with the Vice Chairman, with the other members, on an
ongoing basis so that you know appropriately what it is the OIG
is doing and so that we can hear from you what it is you think
we should be looking at.
And so I think that much I can say definitively. With
regard to the jurisdiction, I just--I think that's right, but
it's something I'd want to think about a little more, and I'd
be happy to continue that discussion.
Chairman Burr. I appreciate that, and I hope you'll think
about that as you conduct your business, and I'm appreciative
of the offer. And I will reiterate what I think I said to you
in my office and, Isabel, what I said to you. The Committee
takes oversight extremely--as an extremely important part of
our function. And oversight works much better when people on an
ongoing basis share with us what it is they're working on, come
to us early in areas that look like they're going to be
concerns and brief the Committee as early as possible, so that
it's not an end-of-the-process dump where all the questions
deal with, ``why didn't you come in?''
So I encourage you, even though, as, Isabel, I shared with
you, that we probably have the least amount of contact with
Treasury Intelligence and Analysis of anybody within the
community that we deal with, that doesn't have to be the way
going forward.
And, as the Vice Chairman expressed, more and more the
financial records that transfer around the world are of greater
and greater importance to us, from a standpoint of connecting
the dots and looking at the threats and understanding the scope
of it.
By the same standpoint, Robert, on your side, it's the
individuals that search out to find that information. And our
confidence in you that we're living within the letter of the
law and that we're not crossing the line is absolutely crucial
to us.
So, to both of you, we thank you for your years of service.
We thank you in advance for the years that you're going to give
us in this new capacity. I thank your families for their buy-in
and for their willingness to support you.
I now dismiss the first panel and call up the second panel.
[Recess from 9:55 a.m. to 9:58 a.m.]
Chairman Burr. I'd like to call us back into session for
the second panel.
Sue, welcome. Sue Gordon is President Trump's nominee to be
the next Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence.
Sue, congratulations on your nomination.
I'd like to take this moment to recognize your family in
attendance today, many of whom have served or continue to serve
this country: your father, Vice Admiral Robert ``Bob'' Monroe--
Admiral, welcome--your mother, Charlotte, welcome; your
husband, Jim, a career intelligence officer; your son, Jay, his
wife Bethany, both assistant district attorneys.
And I hear you have two captains from the Marine Corps with
you, your daughter Casey and her husband Eric. Wave. Trust me;
in North Carolina we love Marines.
[Laughter.]
Let me thank all of you for your service to the country. I
also want to especially thank your sister Nancy for coming
today, because I understand she was a cheerleader at my alma
mater, Wake Forest, when I played football there. Some of my
colleagues don't believe that that's the case, but----
Vice Chairman Warner. You played football?
Chairman Burr. I also want to have your teammates from the
Duke basketball team, Barbara Krause and Margo Walsh--I welcome
them. I'm also pleased when the ACC is so well represented.
Our goal in conducting this hearing is to enable the
Committee to consider Ms. Gordon's qualifications and to allow
for thoughtful deliberation by our members. She already has
provided substantive written response to questions presented by
the Committee and its members. Today, of course, members will
be able to ask additional questions and hear from Ms. Gordon in
open session.
Sue Gordon has served our Nation as a member of the
intelligence community for more than 30 years. I'd like to note
that before Sue launched her career she wisely sought wisdom in
North Carolina, where she earned her bachelor of science degree
from Duke University. She reminded me that she could equip me
with a darker blue tie today. Had I actually been thinking,
there's no way I would've worn this one today.
[Laughter.]
After joining the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence in
1980, Sue worked her way up the ranks and ultimately served in
various management positions before becoming leader in the
CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology.
In 1998, Ms. Gordon became Special Assistant to the
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency and was responsible
for designing and implementing In-Q-Tel, a private nonprofit
company whose primary purpose is to deliver innovative
technology solutions for the intelligence community.
Sue rounded out her career at the CIA by serving as the
Director of the Directorate of Support and the Director of
Information Operations Center and finally as CIA's director of
senior--Director's Senior Advisor on Cyber.
In 2015, Ms. Gordon became the Deputy Director of National
Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. In that role, Sue has ably
assisted the director in fulfilling the NGA's mission to
provide timely, relevant and accurate and actionable geospatial
intelligence to the intelligence community, the Department of
Defense, the President, and this Committee.
Sue, you've been asked to help lead the intelligence
community at a time of profound threat and challenge. As I said
during Director Coats's nomination hearing, we're facing
threats from state and non-state actors alike and are engaged
in a robust debate at home on the scope and the scale of
intelligence objectives and collection and what authorities are
right and appropriate and lawful.
I expect you to be a forceful advocate for the intelligence
community in those discussions, while maintaining an unwavering
respect for the rule of law. And I have no question you will. I
have complete trust that you'll lead the community with
integrity and will ensure that the intelligence enterprise
operates lawfully, ethically, and morally.
Sue, our Committee has had the opportunity to work with you
many times during your career, and I believe your breadth of
service in so many areas of the intelligence community, as well
as your commitment to serving our Nation, make you a natural
fit to help Director Coats lead our intelligence community.
As I told Dan Coats, I can assure you that this Committee
will continue to faithfully follow its charter and conduct
vigorous and real-time oversight of the intelligence community,
its operations and its activities. We'll ask difficult and
probing questions to you and your staff, and we'll expect
honest, complete and timely responses.
I look forward to supporting your nomination. I look
forward to having you as a partner with Director Coats, and I
will ensure to you that we are going to consider you without
delay. I want to thank you again for being here, for your years
of service, and to your family who has committed as well to
that service.
I now recognize the Vice Chairman.
Vice Chairman Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It's also my great honor to welcome Sue, someone who's
helped educate me as I have learned this--learned about the
intelligence community. Matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I would
like to enter into the record a publication called The Cipher
Brief, the title of which is ``The Great Expectations for Susan
M. Gordon,'' where she is called--``Gordon might just be the
woman for the job.'' She's ``said to be widely liked by members
of both political parties, deeply respected,'' ``straight
shooter,'' and a whole series of other wonderful compliments.
So if you screw up, this is going to come back and bite you.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Burr. So ordered.
[The material referred to follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Vice Chairman Warner. But I'd like to enter that into the
record.
And I just want to reiterate what the Chairman said. I
think you're going to be a great partner with Dan Coats. We've
talked about IC ITE and how important trying to get that
implemented, that process implemented will be. We've talked
about acquisitions, particularly in terms of overhead, and very
much appreciate the fresh approach you brought at NGA; and now,
in this new, enhanced role, how we will try to bring that same
kind of forward-leaning acquisition process to NRO and the
balance of the community.
I also think one of the things that we're going to need to
work through is the security clearance process, how we move
people from the community in and out as they move from public
sector to private sector and back, back, back and forth.
Again, I can't think of a better person to partner with Dan
Coats, and look forward very much to supporting your
nomination.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
Sue, would you please stand? Raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Ms. Gordon. I do.
Chairman Burr. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF SUSAN M. GORDON, NOMINATED TO BE PRINCIPAL DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
Chairman Burr. Sue, before we move to your statement, I'd
like to ask you five standard questions the Committee poses to
each nominee who appears before us. They require a simple yes
or no answer for the record.
Do you agree to appear before the Committee here or in
other venues when invited?
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr. If confirmed--would you cut on your
microphone, just to make sure he picks it up.
If confirmed, do you agree to send officials from your
office to appear before the Committee and designated staff when
invited?
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to provide documents or any
other materials requested by the Committee for it to carry out
its oversight and legislative responsibilities?
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr. Will you ensure that your office and your
staff provide such materials to the Committee when requested?
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to
the fullest extent possible all members of the Committee of
intelligence activities and covert action, rather than just the
members--the Chairman and the Vice Chairman?
Ms. Gordon. Yes, I will.
Chairman Burr. Thank you very much.
We'll now proceed to your opening statement. The floor is
yours.
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman,
members of the Committee. I am honored to appear before you as
the nominee for the Principal Deputy Director of National
Intelligence. I'd like to begin by thanking the President for
nominating me to this position and Director Coats for his faith
in my experience and my passion to help him lead the
intelligence community.
I love America. I love being here today as we do the
Nation's work, as our founders envisioned. I never thought I'd
say that I would enjoy being here, testifying in front of this
Committee, to anticipate your gentle, gentle questioning----
[Laughter.]
But I do.
As a career intelligence officer, to lead the women and men
of the world's finest intelligence enterprise in service of the
Nation at a time of challenge is both humbling and exciting.
We are who we began as. Today, I'm so pleased to be joined
by my family, some by birth, some by choice, who helped bring
me to this day:
My mom and dad, who instilled in me a love of country, the
drive to always do my very best, and the responsibility to work
for something bigger than myself;
My big brother and sister, who allowed me to live through
childhood and who keep me in line to this day;
My husband, who has been the love of my life and my best
friend for actually today 37 years. And the fact that he is
also a career intelligence professional means we not only get
to share our life, but our life's work.
My remarkable children and their spouses, as you mentioned,
two assistant district attorneys from Houston and two Marine
pilots currently stationed in Southern California, who have
also chosen to serve their term for their country;
My Duke basketball teammates, who taught me how to be
depended upon and to learn how to depend on others, and to win
with respect and to lose with dignity;
And finally, my intelligence community colleagues, who are
really the heroes of my story. It is their work that brings me
here. Thank you all for standing with me today, as you always
have.
These are interesting times, as you mentioned, Mr.
Chairman, as the Nation faces a wide variety of security
challenges, whether it's the cyber threat faced by an ever-
expanding digital environment, the threat posed by nation-
states like Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran, the threat of
terrorist groups who continue to threaten the United States and
her interests, or simply the pace of change that demands we
move ever faster.
The intelligence community is challenged every day to
deliver and at its best we provide decision-makers with the
advantage to meet these and all threats and identify the
opportunities to act before events dictate.
I'm incredibly proud to be considered for this position at
exactly this moment. I feel that perhaps my broad experience,
my love of a good challenge and my reputation for finding new
solutions, my penchant for rolling up my sleeves and getting to
work, and my understanding that the only way we get things done
is through our people and with them will be useful.
It may seem surprising to some that a career Central
Intelligence Agency officer would extol the virtues of the
Office of the Director of National Intelligence. But I believe
it performs a vital role in ensuring that the Nation always has
access to the best intelligence, delivered at exactly the right
time.
The intelligence community best serves the Nation when we
work together, and leveraging the work of the community and
integrating it at its highest level is exactly where the ODNI
is meant to perform.
When Director Coats appeared before you he described the
role of the DNI as a head coach, and I think that's an apt
analogy. So let me briefly share my view of the role of the
assistant coach, the principal deputy, and to offer some
perspective on what I would bring to the job if confirmed.
The first role is integration, work well begun by my
predecessor, but no less a focus today. It is necessary, but
not sufficient, that each organization delivers excellence in
its responsibility and craft. But we must also be able to share
that work appropriately, in a seamless, timely fashion, so that
the community and consequently the Nation, benefits from the
collective.
My more than two decades of service at the CIA across
various disciplines--analysis, technology, operations and
support--and my last two years as deputy director of the
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency have allowed me to see
the strengths of various disciplines and organizations and the
power of using them together.
I understand different risk equations. I see how tactical
military requirements both differ from and complement strategic
intelligence, and I know how to find common ways forward.
My second role is to support innovation. The community not
only has delivered great capability to the Nation, but what it
brings to bear today is the best I've ever seen. And yet it is
not enough. We cannot stand still, lest we lose our advantage;
and we must improve at an increasing rate, because the world is
turning ever faster and global connectedness is transforming
our advantage from being grounded simply in technology, but
more in its clever use.
If confirmed, I will help create the impetus and the room
for this to happen, and I will look forward to this Committee
helping in this necessary quest.
Somewhere along the way I've become comfortable with
leading change, sometimes big change, like asking a group of
private citizens to form a company like In-Q-Tel; sometimes
smaller change, like changing the support model of how we
provide facilities, finance, and security worldwide so it can
be more effectively and efficiently delivered; and sometimes
simply changing perspective that allows geospatial intelligence
to both benefit from and provide benefit to work going on in
the open.
I know that if you focus on maintaining relevance rather
than simply preserving the status quo, you can always find your
way.
The third role and my favorite is leading the women and men
of the intelligence community in creating the environment in
which they can thrive. I've had the joy of leading thousands of
incredible intelligence professionals, from those leading
operations to those inventing our future to those who support
mission execution.
Our people are our greatest asset, our base of talent, and
the real answer to what we need. Our future is bright because
more and more, better and better, continue to arrive at our
door and ask to serve.
If I'm confirmed as the PDDNI, I intend to be their
champion, ensuring they have the opportunities, tools and
support they need to continue the great work of this Nation.
And I will advance diversity and inclusion, not simply because
it is decent, but because I know that, in order for us to
deliver our best, we must create an environment where everyone
can bring their best, truest selves to the task at hand.
I've been an LGBTQ ally and champion for years and the
experience has let me see the magic that happens when people of
all races, religions, sexual orientation and experiences
receive our support.
In closing, I'd like to thank the Committee again for your
consideration of my nomination. If confirmed, I intend to work
with all of you with clarity, candor and energy to make sure
that the IC has the support it needs to tackle whatever the
opposing teams bring our way; that the ODNI is focused only on
its primary mission and we deliver on that mission effectively
and efficiently; and that the Congress has the information
needed to conduct necessary oversight responsibilities.
I'm proud to be here, to represent the women and men of the
intelligence community and to work alongside Director Coats to
lead us. This is a humbling experience and I'm grateful for the
opportunity, and I look forward to your questions.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Gordon follows:]
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Vice Chairman Warner [presiding]. I believe Senator King
will go first.
Senator King. I appreciate it.
Perhaps you could ask the IC if they could design a way we
could do our hearings here without conflicts. Both Senator
Heinrich and I have bills before another Committee that we have
to go and----
Ms. Gordon. Then I will be clear and direct.
Senator King. Thank you. I appreciate that.
First, I just want to emphasize, number one, how pleased I
am that you're undertaking this position, given your history
and background. And I think, as you testified, you come at a
particularly important moment. The threats are varied and vast,
complex. You're joining Director Coats, who all of us know
well, and who is extremely able and thoughtful, but does not
have the deep background in the IC that you have. And I think
you'll make an extraordinary team.
My one question of concern is at the beginning of the new
Administration there was a lot of talk about perhaps abolishing
the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. A fellow
named Steve Feinberg was assigned to look into it.
So my first question is, how do you feel as an intelligence
professional about the role of this office? And, secondly, have
you met with Mr. Feinberg? Has he--have you had any exchanges
with him? Do you know whether he's met with Mr. Coats? Where
does that question stand?
So first question is your views on the role of this, not
your position necessarily, but the ODNI generally? And then,
secondly, where this analysis stands.
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Senator King, for your question. I
see the role of the Office of the Director of National
Intelligence pretty simply, as I stated. It's to make sure that
we always deliver the best intelligence that all the members of
the community have to offer at the right time, unbiased,
brought together at the moment of decision so that we can make
it.
Senator King. Given the fact that there are 16 agencies, do
you think it's necessary to have such an institution like the
ODNI, which was created as I understand it after September
11th, because of the problem of lack of communication between
the agencies?
Ms. Gordon. As a CIA officer, I think, when it was formed I
couldn't imagine why we needed something. Heck, we were the
Central Intelligence Agency; how could you need anything more
than that? That was formed, interestingly, with kind of the
same premise of bringing other intelligence together.
As I look at it now, the integrative functions that the
ODNI provides, particularly over time, have been remarkable in
bringing us together in ways that we couldn't have. And I'll
just cite one example of--the FBI at the same table, from an
intelligence perspective, has allowed us to tackle some of our
most difficult threats because we have the mechanisms to bring
them together. DHS similarly.
As we look at cyber threats, if we aren't partners with
those organizations as well and have the ability to have them
in the same room--but you need an organization to drive this to
happen. And you don't want different types of intelligence to
be subordinate to any one opinion of what the right thing is.
And I think that is the right, proper, just role. And then
there are things that we do to ensure that that happens.
What I think everyone has been concerned about is, have we
grown too big? Do you over time suck up too many other
responsibilities, exceed your brief? Director Coats is
committed to looking at it. I think he has suggested to me that
that will be a special opportunity I have, to lead that look.
But do I believe we need it in order to make sure that we
can integrate the best we have and deliver it, rather than
putting a bunch of data on people's desks--but rather, give the
best chance? I think so.
To your second question, sir, about any presidential review
that might or might not happen, I don't believe that that has
taken shape yet. I'm a career intelligence officer. I believe
that scrutiny is a good thing. If that were to come to bear----
Senator King. That's what you do--that's what you do for a
living.
Ms. Gordon. It is, right. And you have to be comfortable
with it. It's not always pleasant, but it is what makes us
better, whether it is program reviews or audit or IG
inspectors, Congressional oversight, or just questioning that
the American people have of us.
Senator King. You haven't met with Mr. Feinberg? Or have
you?
Ms. Gordon. I have, briefly, before I was nominated, as he
was talking to members of the intelligence community. But I
don't believe that that has been resolved yet. If it happens,
we'll absolutely work with him, because we share a quest. But I
don't have any sense of whether or how it will shape. And so
any comment I might have would be premature.
Senator King. Thank you. Thank you very much, and----
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Senator.
Senator King [continuing]. Thank you again for your
willingness to serve.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Vice Chairman.
Vice Chairman Warner. Two or three quick questions. One,
you know, obviously this Committee's very engaged and involved
in the investigation into Russian meddling in our 2016
elections. Should you be confirmed, we'd want your commitment
that you will work with this Committee as we need documents or
other information.
Ms. Gordon. Director Coats, I think, has been very clear in
his support, and I absolutely support that.
Vice Chairman Warner. Excellent.
One of the areas that we discussed--a little nerdy but
terribly important--and that's the IT backbone for the whole
intelligence community. IC ITE was something that Director
Clapper was a huge advocate of. It's our hope that you'll take
on that responsibility and see that mission through to its
completion. Comments?
Ms. Gordon. Yeah. I don't see how we get to our future if
we don't complete the work of IT modernization to make sure we
have the infrastructure that allows us to take advantage of
technologies that are appearing that are useful, and doing so
in a secure, managed fashion across all our organizations.
There is nothing diminished about that imperative.
I do think that there are--there's work we need to do to
increase the rate of adoption, because we have answers we need
to provide and partners and customers we need to reach when
this is in place.
So not only will you have my commitment to continue it, but
I will look forward to coming back to this Committee and talk
about how we might advance it at even a greater rate.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, this will be the ultimate lay-
up question. You----
Ms. Gordon. Yes, Duke women's basketball will win the
national championship.
[Laughter.]
Vice Chairman Warner. My father, who's a UConn women's
basketball fan, might disagree.
But, obviously you've been a champion at NGA in terms of
smaller sats and commercial use. One of the things I want to
give public accolades to the Chairman, he's really become a
huge believer, particularly as we try to get our requirements
done in a much faster way, move in a much more aggressive way.
Stephanie O'Sullivan carried on a lot of that champion role
when she fulfilled the principal deputy's role. My hope would
be that you would continue to be that advocate. Do you want to
speak to that briefly?
Ms. Gordon. I will. I've gone on the record many times
saying that one of our greatest competitors is simply time, and
that's because intelligence is about advantage and you just
have to keep up to continue to provide advantage.
For as great as our intelligence collection capabilities
are--and they are stunning, eye-watering, and we deliver great
security to this Nation--you just can't stand still. And if
you're not excited about what's happening in the private sector
and the opportunity that affords for us to not only provide
additive capability, but imagine how we can do things
differently, you're just not thinking.
You will have my commitment to continue to push that, even
as we both recognize that the confidence, availability, and
reliability of the data that those things connect is always
something that we'll have to balance the speed with which we
might pursue things. But you and I will be absolutely pushing
on that same rope together.
Vice Chairman Warner. Well, now that the minority has given
you totally lay-up questions, I'll turn the floor back over to
the Chairman.
[Laughter.]
Ms. Gordon. But Wake Forest might do well, too.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Burr. I've never known Warner to suck up quite as
much as he just did.
[Laughter.]
Sue, you referenced yourself to Dan's assistant coach. Let
me just remind you, they don't know anything about college
sports in Indiana.
[Laughter.]
Listen, a few questions: Where do you see the most
opportunity to innovate within the intelligence community?
Ms. Gordon. One easy answer: This is a data world, not a
world of data scarcity, but data abundance. It's what
intelligence is. The data that are available just should make
us drool with excitement, but only if we can command it in a
way that is not the manual processes that have dominated our
past.
So to me artificial intelligence, automation, augmentation,
those things that allow us to look at data and be able to turn
it from noise into some signal that then our analysts can look
at and advance is probably where, not only is it the greatest
opportunity because of what is going on in the private sector
for the exact same reason, but also our greatest need.
There are just no ways for us to continue to understand all
that we have available to us if we don't advance in these
technologies. So I think that's really the one.
The more surprising answer might be that I think innovation
in business processes--the world has turned so much that the
ways in which we do things are driven by what we constructed at
a time that is some time past. So looking at our business
processes, our policies, the way in which we move things, move
people, consider security, I think are all the things in which
we can innovate in order to achieve the same objective that you
already talked about, which is speed and efficiency.
So those two areas I think are great, but it's in all. It's
in all, and how we think about training our officers and about
how we move them, about how we consider classification. This is
a great moment, because the need is so sure and the
opportunities provided by that which is available should allow
us to find some great solution, if we just have the will and
time.
Chairman Burr. I agree with you, and I think the Committee
does, on data. I will share with you one concern that I have.
When we came off of September the 11th, the buzzword then was
``analytics.'' We've got to get more analysts. And we created
analysts in every inch of the whole of government. And I've
questioned for the past number of years whether we've got
tremendous duplication.
As I look at the ability to manage and utilize big data, I
begin to see different streams of funding from different
agencies. I think it's important from an ODNI standpoint that,
at least through the IC community, that there be a coordinated
approach to it where we don't look back in hindsight and say,
``We had different agencies duplicating the work,'' and that
that's something that you will take on as a primary role, to
make sure that all of the efforts complement themselves.
And I know you're--as you leave NGA, you leave at a time
where I think there's a proposal on the table for a very unique
approach----
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr [continuing]. To leveraging data that is
available and open for individuals that need data to build
their base, and maybe a trade-off of them sharing their
algorithms with NGA. So it's a fascinating approach that I
think I want to talk to you offline, not just about that, but
how we take In-Q-Tel and is there an additional role for In-Q-
Tel to play in the whole of government. And as Mark and I have
talked several times, we have no technology clearinghouse
within the whole of government.
Ms. Gordon. Right.
Chairman Burr. Every agency considers that they've got
their own IT people to do that. I'm hard-pressed to find
anything that government does well, and I'm being serious when
I say that, in business practice.
Ms. Gordon. If you'll allow, I--that's what I was alluding
to in terms of our business processes. I think public-private
partnership is something that the intelligence community has
done exceptionally well over its history.
As a matter of fact, I'm old, so I've seen a lot, and I can
tell you I can't think of any of the accomplishments of my
career that I have seen that haven't been done without a
partner from the private sector. We've done it differently over
time. Around World War II we formed FFRDCs, where we brought in
talent and held it essentially for government use, in a special
place so that it was available to us.
In the seventies, it was going to a company and forming
Skunk Works, so that we could do something remarkable that then
the U.S. government would have unique advantage.
In the nineties, with In-Q-Tel, we were like, ``well, that
model isn't going to work for the government to hold the
innovation.'' And I think we now need to continue to look for
ways that we solve the value proposition of both ends in order
to advance us.
But this moment, because of what is so openly available, we
should be able to do it, but I agree with you we should do it
in an organized fashion. There are times when a thousand
flowers should bloom, when you have great uncertainty. There
are other times when you know you need to advance that you
should do so in a purposeful fashion and to husband your
resources, and I think that's a great example of what the ODNI
can provide value for.
Chairman Burr. I'm going to approach the conversation on IC
ITE a little bit different than Mark did.
Ms. Gordon. Okay.
Chairman Burr. In our conversation, I told you I was
charging you----
Ms. Gordon. Yes.
Chairman Burr [continuing]. Personally with making sure
that this was implemented and that you shared with us any
process hurdles that are in the way or funding limitations,
that we could clear the brush to allow this to become reality.
So I hold----
Ms. Gordon. I so commit.
Chairman Burr [continuing]. I hold you to it.
One other area, just for any comments that you might have.
The community is plagued with leaks right now. I would say the
Committee has had a rash of problems that we haven't
experienced in the past. And from a Committee to the IC
community, I think the integrity of this Committee's--of how we
handle things is absolutely vital to the willingness to share
information with us.
By the same standpoint, when we see, as Senator Feinstein
alluded to in the last panel, three significant breaches from
the NSA, that brings great concern and consternation to the
Committee, and I know it does to the whole IC community.
Do you commit to us, from a standpoint of the ODNI's
efforts, to try to get into this leak problem and figure out
how we plug this?
Ms. Gordon. Senator, I believe that unauthorized
disclosures of classified information are always damaging.
There are so many processes by which we can serve the American
people transparently through oversight that leaks, people
deciding to go their own way, are not in this Nation's
interests. And we will be a good partner with you on addressing
that issue.
Chairman Burr. Thank you. I know the Vice Chairman and I
would love to get with you at some point, once you've got your
sea legs there, to talk about some concepts that we have for
the whole of government that minimize the potential for tools
that are used today.
And I find it odd, but I'm not surprised, that I think this
Committee is probably more esteemed in technology, current
technology, than any Committee on Capitol Hill, not because
we're jurisdictionally there, but because it's that same
technology that presents us the greatest threat around the
corner. So we've had to--we've had to spend a lot of time
learning it.
Ms. Gordon. I do think there--I look forward to, when I
have my sea legs at the end of next week----
[Laughter.]
Coming to see you. But seriously, I think it's a problem,
but I think there are a number of things going on that offer
great potential, and we've talked about it before.
You know, cloud computing is sometimes such a buzzword, but
there is great security potential in that advance; continuous
evaluation, looking at our employees, looking at some of the
insider threat work that's going on.
I think there are a number of good things, from
technological solutions, to policy solutions, that should give
us increasing advantage over this. But I look forward to coming
and speaking with you, hearing your ideas and then advancing
those.
Chairman Burr. Great. Thank you very much.
Seeing no additional members that are here to ask you the
tough questions that Senator Warner didn't, let me once again--
--
[Laughter.]
Ms. Gordon. I'm so disappointed, sir.
Chairman Burr [continuing]. Let me once again thank you. I
thank your family for their service to the country, and can
tell you personally that we are just absolutely thrilled to
have you in this new role. It's my expectation that we will
move your confirmation as quickly as we possibly can and that
Dan will have a committed assistant coach there.
This hearing's now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:34 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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