Hearings
Hearing Type:
Open
Date & Time:
Thursday, January 12, 2017 - 10:00am
Location:
Dirksen 106
Witnesses
Director
Mike
Pompeo
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency
CIA
Full Transcript
[Senate Hearing 115-72]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-72
OPEN HEARING TO CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF HON. MIKE POMPEO TO BE
DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
THURSDAY, JANUARY 12, 2017
__________
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
24-744 PDF WASHINGTON : 2017
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center,
U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free).
E-mail, gpo@custhelp.com.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina, Chairman
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Vice Chairman
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
MARCO RUBIO, Florida RON WYDEN, Oregon
SUSAN COLLINS, Maine MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
ROY BLUNT, Missouri ANGUS KING, Maine
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma JOE MANCHIN, West Virginia
TOM COTTON, Arkansas KAMALA HARRIS, California
JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio
CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona, Ex Officio
JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio
----------
Chris Joyner, Staff Director
Michael Casey, Minority Staff Director
Desiree Sayle, Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
----------
JANUARY 12, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Burr, Hon. Richard, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from North Carolina. 1
Warner, Hon. Mark R., Vice Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Virginia 2
WITNESSES
Roberts, Hon. Pat, U.S. Senator from Kansas...................... 5
Dole, Hon. Bob, former U.S. Senator from Kansas.................. 6
Pompeo, Hon. Mike, Nominated to be Director of the Central
Intelligence Agency............................................ 7
Prepared Statement........................................... 12
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees............ 52
Prehearing Questions and Responses............................... 67
Questions for the Record......................................... 128
OPEN HEARING TO CONSIDER THE
NOMINATION OF HON. MIKE POMPEO
TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
----------
THURSDAY, JANUARY 12, 2017
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
Room SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard Burr
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Committee Members Present: Burr (presiding), Warner, Risch,
Rubio, Collins, Blunt, Lankford, Cotton, Cornyn, Feinstein,
Wyden, Heinrich, King, Manchin, and Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BURR, CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Chairman Burr. I'd like to call this hearing to order.
One procedural matter before we begin in earnest. We meet
today prior to President-elect Trump's inauguration and
therefore have not yet received Representative Pompeo's
nomination to be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency.
Procedurally, we cannot vote on and report out the nomination
until it's received in the U.S. Senate.
So today we'll have a hearing in expectation that that
nomination will follow. Our goal in conducting this hearing is
to enable the committee to begin consideration of
Representative Pompeo's qualification, to allow for thoughtful
deliberation of our members.
Representative Pompeo has already provided substantive
written responses to more than 125 questions presented by the
committee and its members. Today, of course, members will be
able to ask additional questions and hear from Representative
Pompeo in open and closed session. It's my intention as soon as
time allows to convene a meeting of the committee to vote on
the nomination and to report it to the Senate floor for
immediate floor vote.
Now I'd like to welcome our witness today. Representative
Mike Pompeo, President-elect Trump's nominee to be the next
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Mike,
congratulations on your nomination.
I'd like to also welcome your wife--Susan, where are you?--
Susan and your son Nick. Would you two just stand up?
[Susan and Nick Pompeo stand; applause.]
Chairman Burr. I want to thank both of you for your support
of your husband, your father, of this incredible opportunity
and I think benefit to our country. I understand that both of
you have been a constant source of constructive and critical
counsel to Mike. You said once during a speech, Nick, you
graded him with a C and, Susan, you graded him with an F for
questioning during an open hearing of the events of Benghazi.
For the record, that tough curve you have described in the
Pompeo household has clearly served you well and likely
prepared you for the challenges that lie ahead.
You'll soon be asked to lead what, Mike, what I believe to
be one of our Nation's most treasured assets during a period of
profound change. The Central Intelligence Agency is one of the
principal members of the United States intelligence community
and is tasked with collecting foreign intelligence through
human sources and by appropriate means. The CIA operates in the
shadows. Its officers are often undercover and sometimes work
in hostile and austere environments. It's not simply a job for
many, but a lifestyle.
The clandestine nature of the Agency's work, however, is
both the greatest capability and most challenging liability
since its activities are outside the public view. We address
that liability by calling upon the President to nominate
individuals with unwavering integrity, and the Senate approves
only those who we're assured will lead this organization
lawfully, ethically, and morally.
Mike, I've reviewed the material provided by you prior to
this confirmation hearing and have spoken with you personally.
You enrolled in the United States Military Academy at West
Point as a teenager. You graduated first in your class before
serving as a cavalry officer. You went on to earn a law degree
at Harvard and founded an aerospace company, where you served
as CEO for more than a decade. You are in your third term
representing the people from the Fourth District of Kansas and
oversaw the intelligence community as a member of the House
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
I believe your intellectual rigor, your honorable service
and outstanding judgment make you a very natural fit to lead
the CIA. I can assure you that this committee will continue to
be faithful and follow its charter and conduct rigorous and
real-time oversight over the CIA operations and their
activities. We will ask difficult and probing questions of you,
your staff, and we will expect honest, complete and timely
response.
The American people allow the CIA to operate in the shadows
because they trust oversight. I take the responsibility very
seriously. I look forward to supporting your nomination and
ensuring its consideration without delay.
I want to thank you again for being here, for your years of
service to your country in many different capacities, and I
look forward to your testimony today.
I now would like to recognize the Vice Chairman, Senator
Warner.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, VICE CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM VIRGINIA
Senator Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also would like
to welcome you and congratulate you, Congressman Pompeo. I want
to also just note on a personal basis, it's great to have the
former Vice Chair back here by my side, willing to kick and
prod me if I get off script.
Let me also echo what the Chairman says and offer
congratulations on your impending nomination to serve as
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. I've enjoyed our
recent meetings and thank you for your honest views.
If confirmed, you will be sitting at a critical
intersection between intelligence and policymaking. You and I
agree that politics has no place in your new line of business.
Your job will be to give the President the best professional
judgment of America's intelligence experts at the CIA, even
when it might be inconvenient or uncomfortable. As the motto
you will see every morning in the lobby of the CIA headquarters
reminds us, your job is to search out and follow the truth
regardless of where it may lead. Many risk their lives and toil
long hours in anonymity to get that critical piece of
information that could mean the difference between literally
life and death.
Congressman Pompeo, I will need your public assurance that
you will always seek to provide unbiased, unvarnished, and
timely intelligence assessments to the President, to his
Cabinet, his advisors, and to those of us in Congress. This
intelligence must represent the best judgment of the CIA,
whether or not that analysis is in agreement with the views of
the President or anyone else who might receive them. I look
forward to hearing from you on this topic.
I've been concerned, as I've mentioned a number of times,
over the course of the electoral campaign and even after it,
that the CIA and the entire intelligence community has
repeatedly and unfairly been subjected to criticism of its
integrity. These comments have affected the morale of these
dedicated men and women. This attitude will have a real impact
on recruitment and retention of talented individuals willing to
serve our country.
Today again, I would like to hear your plan to reassure CIA
employees that the countless hours they commit and the
operations where they may be called upon to put their life on
the line are not in vain, and that their sacrifices will not be
disregarded in the White House or anywhere else in the next
Administration.
Intelligence, as we all know and have discussed as well, is
a team sport and all members of that team must work together.
The President-elect has announced a former member of this
committee, Senator Dan Coats, a friend of many of ours, to
become DNI. I will be paying particularly close attention to
the cooperation between the CIA and ODNI as well as other
intelligence agencies. I will ask that you commit yourself to
this goal of cooperation and to provide assurance to this
committee that you share that goal.
The Agency that you have been nominated to head is facing a
number of challenges brought on by the changing world which
will require great leadership to drive organizational
adaptation; among them, as the Chairman has mentioned: the
increasing use and relevance of open source material and big
data, coupled with the increasing amount of bad or false data
in the world; the difficulty of using cover in a world where
potential recruits have spent most of their lives online using
social media; the challenge of maintaining analytical integrity
after a reorganization that puts analysts and operators in the
same rooms, working on the same programs; and the changing
nature of a Millennial workforce increasingly diverse and born
digitally native.
Finally, as you know, Chairman Burr and I have committed to
conduct a review of the intelligence supporting the
intelligence community's assessment that Russia, at the
direction----
[Power failure; lights and public address system go out.]
I said there would be some intervention.
I want to continue on. Finally, as you know, Chairman Burr
and I have committed to conduct a review of the intelligence
supporting the intelligence community's assessment that Russia,
at the direction of Vladimir Putin, sought to intervene in the
2016 U.S. Presidential election in order to undermine public
faith in our democratic process, to denigrate Secretary
Clinton, and to help the election chances of Donald Trump.
A couple of days ago, the Director of National
Intelligence, the Director of the CIA, the Director of the NSA,
and the Director of the FBI all testified that this was the
most serious attempt to interfere in our political system that
they had ever seen, with their combined hundreds of years of
experience in law enforcement and intelligence. This was not
business as usual with Russia.
It is important that all Americans fully understand the
extent and the vulnerability and the implications of Russia's
intervention. The CIA's leadership needs to keep on top of
these Russian efforts, and you follow the facts of this inquiry
wherever it leads.
Our charge on the committee is to review and validate the
analysis on behalf of the American people, which I fully intend
to achieve expeditiously. I ask that you commit to me and all
members of the committee that you will fully cooperate with
this review and that you will provide the information we
require to conduct it.
Again, thank you for being here. I look forward to the
discussion.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
The Senate Building Supervisor has been notified of our
power surge here. In an effort to allow Senator Collins to
fully work on her critical infrastructure----
[Laughter.]
Legislation, I'm going to ask that the committee recess
temporarily until we get the lighting in the room back. So with
that, the committee stands in recess until the call of the
Chair.
[Recess from 10:18 a.m. to 10:34 a.m.]
I'd like to call the hearing back to order. I think since
we've recessed our microphones have gone bad.
Pat, if you and Senator Dole would follow this
announcement. This is to announce that we're going to move the
hearing to Dirksen 106, the first floor on the southeast
corner. We'll recess for the relocation and call this hearing
to order and begin with our introductions.
[Whereupon, at 10:35 a.m., the hearing was recessed, then
reconvened at 10:43 a.m. in Room SD-106, Dirksen Senate Office
Building.]
I call this session to order.
In light of the circumstances, we don't have an answer to
the problem that we have, but we have ruled out the Vice
Chairman's comments and we've ruled out there's a conspiracy on
the part of Senator Collins to highlight critical
infrastructure in the cyber world.
I'd like to thank the Vice Chairman for his opening words,
and at this time I'm going to shorten my introduction to a very
limited thing. We are honored to have two Kansans here: the
current Senator, Pat Roberts, and former Senator and Leader Bob
Dole. I would recognize Senator Roberts for the first
introduction of Representative Pompeo.
STATEMENT OF HON. PAT ROBERTS, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS
Senator Roberts. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice
Chairman, and members of the committee. As one of this
committee's former chairmen, I fully appreciate the awesome
responsibility that comes with sitting on this dais. Not only
are you charged with authorizing the intelligence activities of
the United States; perhaps more importantly, you represent the
collective conscience of the American people as you oversee and
scrutinize these activities.
As you know well, service on the Intelligence Committee
takes and must take place largely behind closed doors and
without fanfare. It is work that keeps you up at night, but it
is work that needs to be done to ensure that our intelligence
professionals have the guidance and the resources that they
need.
Today, however, you meet in open session to consider the
nomination of my good friend and my Kansas colleague,
Congressman Mike Pompeo, to be the next Director of the Central
Intelligence Agency. My esteemed friend Senator Bob Dole, my
colleague and Kansas' favorite son, and I appreciate the
opportunity to share briefly with you Mike's background and his
achievements.
Ultimately, I believe Mike has the experience, the
knowledge, the judgment, and the skills necessary to lead the
Central Intelligence Agency. Mike is Army-strong. That comes
from a Marine. He graduated at the top of his class in West
Point and then served as a cavalry officer, patrolling the Iron
Curtain before the fall of the Berlin Wall. He later joined the
2nd Squadron, 7th Cavalry, in the 4th Infantry Division.
After completing his military service, Mike attended
Harvard Law School, where he was an editor of the Harvard Law
Review. Because he is an attorney, Mike understands the law. He
will respect the limitations that we have placed upon our
intelligence services and he will preserve our constitutional
values.
After practicing law, Mike returned to his mother's roots
in south-central Kansas, running several very successful
businesses in Wichita before making the decision to run for
Congress back in 2010. Mike came to Washington with a strong
desire to serve the people of the Fourth District and also
ready for a challenge.
He sought a seat on the House Intelligence Committee at a
time when intelligence-gathering methods were under fire. As an
experienced legislator, Mike Pompeo understands and respects
the role of Congress and the need for vigorous oversight. I
believe he will provide the Intelligence Committees with candid
and honest assessments and provide the information the
committee needs which is necessary to fulfil its oversight
responsibilities.
I trust that he will also demand that of everyone who
serves in the CIA. In doing so, I know and he knows the
difference between intelligence reporting and an intelligence
product with input from all in the U.S. intelligence community,
thus making sure our intel community does not become mired in
assessment failure.
Mr. Chairman, there are few positions in government with
greater importance than that of the Director of the Central
Intelligence Agency. At a time when democracy and freedom are
under assault by radical elements fueled by hatred, our
intelligence-gathering services must have--must have--a strong
leader who will guide their mission and ensure the safety of
the American people and not be swayed by any political
interference.
Those who serve in or in support of the clandestine service
deserve our gratitude and our highest respect. The best way I
know how to demonstrate that respect is to give them a leader
that will have their backs and at the same time demand
excellence of each and every one of them. Members of the
committee, Mike Pompeo will be that kind of leader.
I urge you to support this nomination. It is now a
privilege to introduce to the committee someone that needs no
introduction, Senator Bob Dole, with more insight with regards
to Mike Pompeo's leadership that has benefited all of us in
Kansas and in our Nation.
Bob.
Chairman Burr. Senator Dole, the floor is yours.
STATEMENT OF HON. BOB DOLE, FORMER U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS
Mr. Dole. My eyesight is not too good, so I thought it was
perfect in the other room.
[Laughter.]
But I'm happy to be here, of course. Mike and Susan and
your son: it's a great honor for me, and it's an honor just to
come back to the Senate. I don't get up here very often. I know
members on both sides of the aisle understand what a privilege
it is to serve.
I see my fraternity brother chairman here, and my fellow
Kansan, Ron Wyden from Wichita, and others that I know very
well. I didn't see--oh, I did see Susan. She's here somewhere.
Is Dianne Feinstein here?
Senator Feinstein. Here.
Mr. Dole. Where? Oh. Dianne and I used to work together.
Some of it was good.
[Laughter.]
But anyway, I'll just take a minute because we've lost a
few minutes making the transfer.
But I always thought that we tested a member of Congress or
a Senator by what they did at home and what kind of a record
they compiled and what kind of constituent service they had and
whether they really were into what they were elected to do.
Mike has a great record in Kansas, whether it's with the
aviation industry that he worked closely with and had
legislation passed that created more opportunities for small
plane manufacturing, which created jobs--we need jobs in
Kansas. I'm certain we all do, in all of our states.
He had extensive work with veterans, and I do a lot of work
with veterans myself, as a volunteer. He's had over 600 cases
where he's tried to be helpful and has been helpful to veterans
and their families. To me that is the mark of a good person--a
big heart, responsibility, because no one needs more attention
these days than those who served our country, and Mike
understands that.
To think of all the people he's helped in our State, it's
very important. He's also been active in biotech engineering,
whatever that is. He got 101 Democrats to work with him. It was
totally bipartisan. And it really doesn't deal with the CIA,
but again it's an indication of how hard he worked as a
Representative from the Fourth District of Kansas.
I told Mike I'd come up and speak with him or against him,
and he said: ``Let me call you back.'' So I'm very proud to be
here, because I know this man and I know he'll do a great job.
He understands there are no politics in the CIA. It's very,
very difficult and responsible work.
So thank you all for being here this morning. I may run
again, so I'll probably be up here looking for bipartisan
support. But have a good day, and you've got a good candidate
here. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator Dole, thank you very much for your
services to the country, your service to the Senate, and your
service to those in Kansas.
Senator Roberts, thank you for your past leadership on this
committee and, more importantly, your current contribution to
the United States Senate.
With that, Mr. Pompeo, I would like to ask you to stand.
[Mr. Pompeo stands.]
Mike, if you would raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear to give the committee the truth, the full truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Representative Pompeo. I do, sir.
Chairman Burr. Please be seated.
Mike, before we look at your statement, I'll ask you to
answer five standard questions the committee poses to each
nominee who appears before us. They just require a simple yes
or no answer for the record.
TESTIMONY OF HON. MIKE POMPEO, NOMINATED TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to appear before the committee
here and at any other venues when invited?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials
from your office to appear before the committee and designated
staff when invited?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to provide documents or any
other materials requested by the committee in order for the
committee to carry out its oversight and legislative
responsibilities?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Will you both ensure that your office and
your staff provides such materials to the committee when
requested?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Chairman Burr. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to
the fullest extent possible all members of the committee on
intelligence activities and covert action, rather than only the
chair and the vice chair?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir, subject to--subject to
what the President directs, I do. I will always try and do
that.
Chairman Burr. Thank you very much. We'll now proceed to
your opening statement. The floor is yours, Mike.
Representative Pompeo. Thanks very much, Senator Burr,
Senator Warner, members of the committee.
Senator Dole, thank you for your kind words this morning.
But more importantly, thank you for your service to our Nation
and to Kansas, as a public servant here, as an elected
official, and as a soldier in World War II. Kansans--and I
think it's safe to say your former colleagues here in the
Senate--know they've benefited from your wit, your patriotism,
and your kindness. I sure know that I have. Thank you so much
for agreeing to be here this morning.
Senator Bob, thank you too for your warm introduction. I'm
especially grateful for your guidance over the years, not
simply because you're the dean of the Kansas Congressional
delegation, but due to the insights that you've shared with me
in your role as the former chairman of this committee.
Semper fi, sir.
Mr. Dole. I may have to leave early. I finally got a
client.
Representative Pompeo. That's something I completely
understand. Thank you very much for being here, sir.
Chairman Burr, Vice Chairman Warner: Thank you for the
opportunity to be here today as the nominee for the next
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. I want to thank
the staff of this committee, too, for their kindness and
attention through the nomination process.
I'd like to thank President-elect Trump for nominating me.
It's an honor to be selected as the next steward of the world's
foremost intelligence agency. I look forward to working with
Senator Coats, nominee for the Director of National
Intelligence, and supporting him in his critical role, should
we both be confirmed.
I also want to thank Director Brennan and Director Clapper
for their many, many years of selfless service to our Nation.
I'm grateful, of course, to the people of the Fourth District
of Kansas, who have entrusted me for the past six years and
change to represent them in the United States House of
Representatives. It has been a true honor.
Finally, I want to thank my patient and patriotic wife
Susan and my son Nicholas, each of whom I love dearly. The two
of you have been so selfless in allowing me to return to public
service, first as a member of Congress and now, if confirmed,
working with warriors to keep America safe. I cannot tell you
how much it means to me to have you all here with us today.
Having been a member of the House Permanent Select
Committee on Intelligence, I understand full well that my job,
if confirmed, will be to change roles from centrality of
policymaking to information-providing. The Director must stay
clearly on the side of collecting intelligence and providing
objective analysis to policymakers, including to this
committee.
I spent the majority of my life outside of politics, first
as an Army officer and then a litigator and then running two
manufacturing businesses in Kansas. Returning to duty that
requires hard work and unerring candor is something that is in
my bones.
Today I'd like to briefly sketch some of the challenges the
IC faces in the United States, address trends in intelligence,
and describe what I see as the Central Intelligence Agency's
role in addressing each of those.
This is the most complicated threat environment the United
States has seen in recent memory. ISIL remains a resilient
movement that still controls major urban centers of the Middle
East. We must ensure that they and those they inspire cannot
expand their reach or slaughter more innocent people.
The conflict in Syria is one of the worst humanitarian
catastrophes of the 21st century. It has led to the rise of
extremism and sectarianism, as well as further created
instability throughout the region and in Europe, and indeed all
across the world.
Iran, the world's largest state sponsor of terror, has
become an even more emboldened and disruptive player in the
Middle East.
Russia has reasserted itself aggressively, invading and
occupying Ukraine, threatening Europe, and doing nothing to aid
in the destruction and defeat of ISIS.
As China flexes its muscles and expands its military and
economic reach, its activities in the South and East China Seas
and in cyberspace are now pushing new boundaries and creating
real tension.
North Korea too has dangerously accelerated its nuclear and
missile capabilities.
We all rely on intelligence from around the globe to avoid
strategic and tactical surprise. Intelligence helps make the
other elements of national power effective, including economic
and legal measures against weapons proliferators, terrorist
financiers, and other criminals. Foreign governments and
liaison services are vital partners in preventing attacks and
providing crucial intelligence. It's important that we all
thank and appreciate the foreign partners who stand with us in
helping to ensure that we all have the intelligence we need to
keep America safe.
If confirmed, I intend to advocate for a strong and vibrant
intelligence community and the CIA's centrality in that
community. There are at least four long-term trends making the
urgency of Central Intelligence paramount:
First, the intelligence community finds itself a potential
victim of longer-term negative budgetary trends, which can
weaken the fabric of our intelligence community.
Second, as with the proliferation of chemical and
biological weapons and ballistic missile technology, countries
such as North Korea have overcome low barriers to entry to
engage in offensive cyber operations. The United States must
continue to invest wisely to maintain a decisive advantage.
Third, the effects of dislocation and poor governance
present a critical challenge, but also new targets and
opportunities for the CIA's collection and analysis.
Finally, the insider threat problem has grown exponentially
in the digital age. The greatest threats to America have always
been the CIA's top priority. It will be the CIA's mission and
my own if confirmed to ensure that the Agency remains the best
in the world at its core mission, collecting what enemies do
not want us to know. In short, the CIA must be the world's
premier espionage organization.
One emerging and increased focus is the cyber domain.
Sophisticated adversaries like China and Russia, as well as
less sophisticated adversaries like Iran and North Korea,
terrorist groups, criminal organizations, and hackers are all
taking advantage of this new borderless environment. The CIA
must continue to be at the forefront of this issue.
As the President-elect has made clear, one of my top
priorities if confirmed is to assist in the defeat of ISIS. We
must maintain an aggressive counterterrorism posture and also
address manifestations of this great threat beyond ISIS and Al
Qaida.
With respect to Iran, we must be rigorously objective in
assessing the progress made under the Joint Comprehensive Plan
of Action. While I opposed the Iran deal as a member of
Congress, if confirmed, my role will change. I will lead the
Agency to pursue aggressive operations and ensure analysts have
the time, political space, and resources to make objective and
sound judgments.
Similarly, it's a policy decision with respect to how we
will deal with Russia, but it will be essential for the Agency
to provide policymakers with accurate, timely, robust, and
complete intelligence and clear-eyed analysis of Russian
activities to the greatest extent feasible.
As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I fully
appreciate the need for transparency and support from members
of Congress. We owe it to our constituents to get to the bottom
of intelligence failures. But we owe it to the brave Americans
of the intelligence community not to shirk our responsibility
when unauthorized disclosures to the media expose controversial
intelligence activities or when Edward Snowden, from the
comfort of his Moscow safe house, misleads the American people
about our intelligence activities.
On my first visit to CIA headquarters a few years ago, I
visited an analytical targeting cell. Some of you have probably
done this as well. I saw a woman who appeared as though she had
not slept for weeks. She was poring over data on her computer
screen. I introduced myself. I asked her what she was working
on and she said she was just hours away from solving a riddle
to locate a particularly bad character she had been pursuing
for months.
She had her mission. Its completion would make America
safer. She was a true patriot. In the past few years, I have
come to know there are countless men and women just like her in
the Agency working to crush our adversaries.
This past weekend I took a moment and visited Arlington
National Cemetery. I've done this many times, but on this visit
I paid special attention to the markers that commemorate CIA
officers who have perished in ensuring our freedom. In so many
places most Americans will never know, agents put themselves
and their lives at risk. We know the sacrifices of the families
of each of these CIA officers. From their role of performing
intelligence, those families sacrifice greatly as well.
As I walked among these heroes, I was reminded of the
sacred trust that will be granted to me if I am confirmed. I
will never fail it.
I am honored to have been nominated to lead the finest
intelligence agency the world has ever known, working to keep
safe the people of the greatest Nation in the history of
civilization. If confirmed, I will be sworn to defend the U.S.
Constitution for the third time in my life: first as a soldier,
then as a member of the House of Representatives, and now to
work with the President and each of you to keep America safe.
Thank you all for an opportunity to speak with you this
morning. I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Representative Pompeo follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Burr. Mr. Pompeo, thank you for your testimony
this morning.
For members, we will recognize based upon seniority for
five minutes of questions. I would note for members, there is a
closed session of this hearing that will start promptly at 1:00
p.m. I would remind members that we're in open session and that
the questions for Representative Pompeo today in this session
should be limited to those that can be discussed and answered
in open session. I trust that if you ask something that can't,
the witness will make sure that he answers it when we get to
closed session.
That said, Mike, I'm certain that from your experience on
HPSCI and specifically your involvement in the House Select
Committee on Benghazi investigation you understand how valuable
intelligence can be to oversight. If asked by the committee,
will you provide the raw intelligence and sourcing behind
Agency finished products and assessments if in fact this
committee needs it to complete its job?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I have been on the other
side of this and I know how central it is to make sure you have
all that you need to perform your oversight function for
intelligence collection activities and all that the Agency
does. You have my commitment that I will always do everything I
can to make sure I give you the information that you need,
including an expanded set of information.
I understand on a handful of issues you have reached
agreement. I heard Director Clapper testify before you. I
believe it was last week; it may have been the beginning of
this week. I promise to honor the commitment that Director
Clapper made to this committee.
Chairman Burr. Thank you for that.
There has been much discussion about the role of the
Central Intelligence Agency and what it played in the detention
and interrogation of terrorism suspects as part of the RDI
program. These detention facilities operated by the CIA have
long since been closed. President Obama officially ended the
program seven years ago.
I think the debate space on this subject has become
confused and I'm certain that the law is now very, very clear.
Do you agree that it would require a change in the law for the
CIA or any government agency to lawfully employ any
interrogation techniques beyond those defined in the Army Field
Manual?
Representative Pompeo. I do.
Chairman Burr. You have been an outspoken critic in the
past of the policy and activities of this Administration, when
you were serving representing the people of the Fourth District
of Kansas. As head of the CIA, you'll be in a position to speak
truth to power and provide the President with your Agency's
unbiased, unvarnished, and best assessment of threats facing
our Nation, assessments that will inform his approach to those
very policies and activities that you may have criticized in
the past.
Will you be able to set politics aside and provide the
President with clear-eyed assessments free of political
interference?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I appreciate the question.
When you say that, I understand the question that you're
asking. I spent my life telling the truth, sometimes in very,
very difficult situations--as a lieutenant, as a member of
Congress, in fact as a member of the oversight committee.
Sometimes we get placed in difficult situations, talking to our
constituents about things that matter an awful lot to the
American national security. Sometimes we just can't reveal
them.
You have my commitment that every day I will not only speak
truth to power, but I will demand that the men and women who I
have come to know well over these past few years, who live
their lives doing just that, will be willing, able, and follow
my instructions to do that each and every day.
Chairman Burr. Thank you for that.
Vice Chairman.
Senator Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, Congressman, it's great to see you. To ensure that I
don't end up with a light outage again, I won't read you the
second half of my statement. But I do want to get you on the
record, Mike, on a couple of issues that we had discussed,
particularly about this inquiry into Russian active measures.
I wanted to also reiterate the Chairman's comments on the
absolute necessity to make sure that you bring forward this
analysis in an unvarnished way. I think you have made that
clear to the Chairman. I know you have made it clear to me on a
private basis. So let me go into some of these questions fairly
quickly.
Do you accept the conclusions of the IC regarding Russia's
active measures?
Representative Pompeo. Senator Warner, I do. I had my
briefing. I attended the meeting at which the President-elect
was briefed. Everything I have seen suggests to me that the
report is an analytical product that is sound.
Senator Warner. Do you pledge to cooperate with the SSCI's
special inquiry and to provide, if possible, all necessary
materials and access to personnel?
Representative Pompeo. Senator Warner, I do. I think that's
incredibly important.
Senator Warner. Do you plan to continue your own
investigation into ongoing Russian active measures and any
attempts they or others may have to undermine the United
States, our political system, or our position in the world?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I do. Indeed, I would
expect that the President-elect would demand that of me. It is
fully my intention. I should share, that's my view with respect
to all the products that the Central Intelligence Agency
produces. If we continue to develop intelligence that is worth
our salt we will continue to gain insights that are valuable to
policymakers, to the President-elect, and you. I will continue
to pursue foreign intelligence collection with vigor no matter
where the facts lead.
Senator Warner. Congressman, I have been critical of the
tenor of some of the President-elect's comments about the
workforce and the professionalism of the IC. In your opening
statement you were very eloquent about the woman who had been
without sleep for some time. In light of some of those
comments, I have concerns about the morale throughout the IC,
but particularly the CIA at this point.
What plan do you have to go in and reassure people who work
at the CIA and how we make sure, in a world where it's
increasingly challenging to get people to step up and serve,
both in terms of recruitment and retention, that you can
reaffirm that you have the CIA employees' backs?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, let me begin by saying I am
confident that the Central Intelligence Agency will play a role
for this Administration, as for every previous Administration,
providing powerful intelligence that shapes policy and
decision-making inside this Administration. I am confident that
President-elect Trump will not only accept that, but demand it,
from the men and women, not only of the CIA, but throughout all
the 17 intelligence communities.
With respect to me personally, I have come to understand
the value of the Central Intelligence Agency. I have seen the
morale through tough times where they have been challenged
before and I've watched them walk through fire to make sure
that they did their jobs in a professional way and that they
always were aimed at getting the truth in depth, in a robust
way, to policymakers. I have every confidence that not only
will I demand that, but that they will continue to do that
under my leadership if I am confirmed.
Senator Warner. It's going to be an ongoing challenge. If
confirmed, obviously I wish you the best. It's critically
important. I see many of the CIA employees. I have the
opportunity to represent them. They live in the Commonwealth of
Virginia. They work in this region. And it's been a challenging
time for them.
I also want to get to, in light of some of the comments
during the campaign the President-elect made, I think a subset
of this issue as well is making sure going forward that the CIA
represents the diversity of the world in terms of Muslim-
Americans being engaged. How do we reassure them, in light of
some of the comments that have been made?
Also, I concur with you that the challenge from ISIL is an
enormous one. How do we make sure--how do we go forward to make
sure that our Muslim allies in our fight against ISIL, that
they're going to continue to have a strong partner in the
United States and not one that is going to in any way
discriminate based upon faith?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, it's absolutely imperative.
We have a workforce out at the Agency that's incredibly
diverse. As you all well know, to achieve their mission we have
to have folks from a broad background set, as well as language
skills that represent all parts of the world, so that we can
perform our intelligence operations properly.
And we have partners in a Muslim world that provide us
intelligence and who we share with in ways that are incredibly
important to keeping America safe. I'm counting on, and I know
you are as well, that these liaison partnerships will continue
to be additive to American national security. You have my
commitment that our workforce will continue to be diverse. I
hope we can even expand that further, so that we can perform
our incredibly important intelligence collection operations
around the world.
Senator Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Risch.
Senator Risch. Mr. Chairman, I've spent a considerable
amount of time with Mike over the years and recently, and we're
on a short string here. I'm going to reserve my questions until
we get to the closed hearing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Feinstein.
Senator Feinstein. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to begin by saying I really appreciate the
private meeting we had an opportunity to have. For me it was a
clarification. I do appreciate your apology. I take it with the
sincerity with which you gave it.
I want to ask one follow-up question to what the Chairman
asked, and that's dealing with those enhanced interrogation
techniques. That is that, if you were ordered by the President
to restart the CIA's use of enhanced interrogation techniques
that fall outside of the Army Field Manual, would you comply?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, absolutely not. Moreover, I
can't imagine that I would be asked that by the President-elect
or then-President. I voted for the change to put the Army Field
Manual in place as a member of Congress. I understand that law
very, very clearly and am also deeply aware that any changes to
that will come through Congress and the President.
Senator Feinstein. And regular order?
Representative Pompeo. And regular order, yes, ma'am,
absolutely.
With respect to outlines of what's in the Army Field
Manual, there's no doubt in my mind about the limitations in
place, not only on the DOD, but on the Central Intelligence
Agency. I'll always comply with the law.
Senator Feinstein. Another question: How will you handle
the President-elect's refutation of the intelligence
community's high assessment that Russian intelligence units,
namely the GRU and the FSB, did in fact hack and spear phish
into the campaigns and parties of both political parties this
past campaign season?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, as with--I think I answered
Senator Warner the same way. My obligation as the Director of
the CIA is to tell every policymaker the facts as best the
intelligence agency has developed them. With respect to this
report in particular, it's pretty clear that what took place,
about Russian involvement in efforts to hack information and to
have an impact on American democracy.
I'm very clear about what that intelligence report says,
and I have every expectation as we continue to develop the
facts I will relay those, not only to the President, but to the
team around him and to you all, so that we can have a robust
discussion about how to take on what is an enormous threat from
cyber.
I think you know that. You have lived it. This is very
real. It is growing. It is not new in that sense. But this was
an aggressive action taken by the senior leadership inside of
Russia, and America has an obligation, and the CIA has a part
in that obligation, to protect that information.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, Senator. And if I may say
too, thank you very much for coming back today. I hope that
your recovery is a speedy one.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you. I appreciate that.
You and I discussed Director Brennan's beginning efforts on
modernization of the CIA and trying to set up a different
mechanism which would make it more effective. What can you tell
us today about how you would proceed in that direction?
Representative Pompeo. Senator Feinstein, there was a major
modernization program that, frankly, is still in the shakeout
cruise at the Agency. It's been going on for a while, but still
lots of things to work through.
My observations from my time as a member of Congress are
that the goals were noble and they were trying to get to the
right place, and that in fact many of the changes that were
made may well end up making sense. But I think we have an
obligation, as I go in, to evaluate that, share those
evaluations with you.
I've heard from a number of you about your observations
about its effectiveness. Some of you have a set of views that
are opposed. You may not even know that about each other's
views yet. But I'm going to take a look. My expectation is that
from my time as a small business person, when you make a change
of this scope and scale that you don't get everything right in
that.
My obligation is to make sure we've got everything right,
that there are clear lines of decision-making and authority,
and that the analytic product that is coming out is true and
clear and real.
Senator Feinstein. Just one last question. You mentioned
the Iranians and what we call the JCPOA. I think, regardless of
what everyone thinks of the settlement, Iran has shipped some
25,000 pounds of enriched uranium out of the country. It has
dismantled or removed two-thirds of its centrifuges. It's
removed the core from its Arak heavy water reactor and filled
it with concrete, and it's provided unprecedented access to its
nuclear facilities and supply chain. Iran's estimated breakout
time has moved from two to three months to a year or more.
In November on Fox News, you said you can't think of a
single good thing that's come from the Iran nuclear deal, not
one. Now, thus far the CIA has provided oversight to this
committee with very solid analysis of what the level of
compliance is, and thus far it has been extraordinarily
positive.
I'd like you to comment on this, because--particularly your
comments, because this nuclear deal is in effect just that. It
doesn't include other things that are bad things that Iran has
done. It's just the nuclear agreement, and they have in fact
conformed to it thus far. So would you comment, please?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, Senator. First, you have my
commitment that, if I am confirmed, that the Agency will
continue to evaluate their compliance with the agreement in the
way you just described the Agency has been doing to date. I
agree with you that that work has been good and robust and that
intelligence I think is important to policymakers as they make
decisions.
I think my comments were referring to the post-January 6,
2015, rampage of Iranian increased activity, and I know you
share my concern about that as well. So when I was speaking to
the risks Iran presents, it was certainly from those
activities, whether it's the fact that they now have missiles
that we've had to fire back at in Yemen in support of the
Houthis or that they're still holding Americans in Iran. Those
are the concerns that I was addressing that day.
You have my commitment as the Director of the CIA, if I am
confirmed, that we will continue to provide you the
intelligence to understand both what's taking place in the
nuclear arena with respect to the JCPOA and its compliance, as
well as to the set of activities that are outside of that.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Rubio.
Senator Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pompeo, thank you, first of all, for your service to
our country repeatedly, in the Army, in Congress, and now here
in this new role.
I know we're going to have a closed hearing later today, so
the questions I'm about to ask you I'd ask that you answer
based on open source information available to the general
public and also your understanding of the law of war as a
graduate of West Point and your service as an officer of the
U.S. Army.
First of all, your understanding as an officer of the U.S.
Army, is the military targeting of civilians a violation of the
law of war?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, intentional targeting of
civilians is absolutely a violation of the law of war.
Senator Rubio. Based on open source information available
to the general public, in the conflict in Syria have Russian
forces conducted repeated attacks against civilian targets?
Representative Pompeo. Sir, based on open source reporting,
it appears that they have.
Senator Rubio. Do you believe, based on your knowledge,
again, acquired through open sources and your just general
knowledge of geopolitics, that Russian military forces could
conduct repeated attacks against targets in Aleppo, Syria,
without the express direction of Vladimir Putin?
Representative Pompeo. It seems intensely unlikely to me,
Senator.
Senator Rubio. Again, all the answers you just gave were
based on open sources, unclassified?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Senator Rubio. The second question I have is: I think you
have already said that you accept this as a fact, that there
was indeed an effort by Russian intelligence and others
associated with the Russian government to conduct a campaign of
active measures in the United States designed to sow doubt
about the credibility of our elections and our democracy, to
sow divisions and chaos in our politics, to undermine the
credibility of political leaders and the like. You agree with
that assessment that we are in the throes of an active measures
campaign that probably predates this campaign, but was
certainly ratcheted up?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, Senator. It's a longstanding
effort of the Russians. And frankly, there are others out there
engaged in a similar set of activities. It is something America
needs to take seriously, a threat that we are vulnerable to
today.
Senator Rubio. And in fact, it is the exact activity they
have undertaken, for example, in Europe and other countries as
well, and we've seen the same sort of pattern in other places,
correct?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, Senator. I'll add to that. We
have elections, important elections, taking place in Europe and
around the world. We need to be deeply cognizant about all of
the foreign actors with malign intent who are attempting to
impact those elections as well.
I think the CIA has a role in trying to understand that
threat and indeed in a fundamental way sharing that with each
and every member of the policymaking community.
Senator Rubio. I'm not asking you to divulge any
intelligence or classified information. Just in your judgment,
as you see the state of American politics and political
discourse--a President-elect who has questioned at times the
judgment of our intelligence agencies, opponents to our
President-elect who continuously question the legitimacy of his
election, the shameful leak in the media regarding
unsubstantiated, unsourced negative information designed to
smear the President-elect, the fact that Russia and President
Putin have become a dominant theme in political coverage in
this country for the better part of three months, if not
longer--as you look at all of that, in your personal opinion is
Vladimir Putin and the Russians looking at all this and saying,
we've done a really good job of creating chaos, division,
instability in the American political process?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, you've put a lot into that,
but let me try and unpack it just a tad. I certainly want to
make sure and talk only about my observations and judgments
based on unclassified information. I have no doubt that the
discourse that's been taking place is something that Vladimir
Putin would look at and say: Wow, that was among the objectives
that I had, to sow doubt among the American political
community, to suggest somehow that American democracy is not
unique.
I believe that it is fundamentally unique and special
around the world. It shouldn't surprise any of us at all that
the leadership inside of Russia used this as something that
might well redound to their benefit.
Senator Rubio. My last question involves an area that you
may not get asked by anybody else on the committee. You might.
But it regards the Western Hemisphere. I just ask if you will
pledge to work within the interagency to make sure that
collection and coverage in the Western Hemisphere, in
particular nations like Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Ecuador,
and Bolivia, that we focus on threats that might emanate from
these places?
Representative Pompeo. Yes.
Senator Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Congressman, for coming down to visit.
At a time when the President-elect is on record as
supporting torture, blocking Americans' ability to protect
themselves with strong encryption, and has encouraged the
outsourcing of intelligence-gathering to the Russians, it's my
view you're going to have an enormous challenge to be an
advocate for honorable policies.
It's already clear that several key members of the
President-elect's national security team advocate illegal
policies. So this morning my view is we need to find out what
you're for. I'm just going to take us through some of the
issues we talked about in the office.
Let's start with surveillance, if we could. You recently
wrote an op-ed article saying that Congress ought to pass a new
law reestablishing collection of all metadata. Those are your
words, ``all metadata.'' So you would basically get the
Congress and the country back into the business of collecting
millions and millions of phone records on law-abiding people.
You go on in this op-ed article to say that these phone
records ought to be combined with ``publicly available
financial and lifestyle information'' into a ``comprehensive,
searchable database.'' So you would be in favor of a new law
collecting all of this data about the personal lives of our
people.
I think that it would be helpful if you could start by
saying, are there any boundaries in your view to something this
sweeping?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, you and I did have a chance
to discuss this. There are, of course, boundaries to this.
First and foremost, they begin with legal boundaries that exist
today.
That piece that I was referring to was talking about the
U.S. Government's obligation to do all that it can in a lawful,
constitutional manner to collect foreign intelligence important
to keeping Americans safe.
Senator Wyden. Congressman, that's not true. We were
talking and you said collecting all metadata.
Representative Pompeo. Yes, Senator.
Senator Wyden. All metadata.
Representative Pompeo. If I might just continue: Yes, I
still continue to stand behind the commitment to keep Americans
safe by conducting lawful intelligence collection. When I was
referring to metadata, I was talking about the metadata program
that the USA Freedom Act has now changed in fundamental ways.
I, you should recall, voted for the USA Freedom Act and I
understand its restrictions, its restrictions on efforts by all
of the U.S. Government to collect information.
Senator Wyden. But you wrote this op-ed since the passage
of the law, so after the law passed you said: Let's get back
into the business of collecting all of this metadata. I'm
curious: What kind of information about finances and lifestyles
would you not enter into your idea of this giant database?
Representative Pompeo. Sir, first of all, I have to begin
by saying today that would be--in most instances what you refer
to there would be lawful under current law. So as the Director
of the CIA, you have my assurance that we will not engage in
unlawful activity.
But I think this committee, the American people, demand
that if there is publicly available information someone has out
there on a publicly available site, I think we have an
obligation to use that information to keep Americans safe. If
someone's out there on their Facebook page talking about an
attack or plotting an attack against America, I think you would
find the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency grossly
negligent if they don't pursue that information.
Senator Wyden. Congressman, I don't take a back seat to
anybody in terms of protecting this country when our security
is on the line. I wrote the section of the Freedom Act that
gives the government emergency authority to move when it's
critical to protect the country.
That's not what we're talking about here. You're talking
about your interest in setting up a whole new metadata
collection system which is far more sweeping than anything the
Congress has been looking at.
If you would, before we vote I would like you to furnish in
writing what kind of limits you think there ought to be on
something like this.
[The information referred to follows:]
Senator Wyden. Let me see if I can get in one more
question. The President-elect had indicated, on the Apple
issue, that in effect he thought that there shouldn't be strong
encryption and that he basically would consider pushing for
mandated back doors into encrypted products. That's been the
position of the FBI and some influential members of Congress.
Now, you have not been a cheerleader, as far as I can tell,
for weakening strong encryption, which is something I think
that sounds constructive. If you're confirmed as CIA Director,
are you willing to take the President, the FBI, and influential
members of Congress on on this issue? Because I think it's
clear, weakening strong encryption will leave us less safe. I'd
like to hear your views with respect to strong encryption, and
would you be willing to take the President, the FBI,
influential members of Congress on when they advocate it?
Because they are going to.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, first of all, I did not
mean at all to suggest you were second to anyone with respect
to keeping America safe. If I implied that, I did not intend
that. You should know I take a back seat to no one with respect
to protecting Americans' privacy, either. I think that is
incredibly, incredibly important.
With respect to encryption, it's a complicated issue. I
know enough about it to begin to form judgments, but I want to
talk to you about the process, the framework I'll use. I think
this applies across a broad range of issues we've discussed
today. When we're dealing about an issue like encryption, that
has commercial implications, national security implications,
privacy implications, I will do my best to understand what it
means to the Central Intelligence Agency and what it means to
our capacity to keep America safe, and I will represent its
interests as my part of a larger effort to make sure that we
get the policy decision right.
And if in fact it is the conclusion of the folks out at the
Agency and our team and I concur in that assessment, I can
assure you I will present that rigorously. Whatever the views
of the person or any of the members of his team, I will do my
best to get that right in my role as the Director of the CIA if
I am confirmed.
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Collins.
Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pompeo, first let me say that I was really heartened by
our meeting and our telephone call, in which you showed that
you fully understood the role that you have as CIA Director to
keep this committee well informed. I expressed to you my
frustration on questioning members of the Intelligence
Committee and then finding that there was more to the story and
that there were omissions at times, not deception but
omissions; and even more frustrating reading in the paper the
next day leaks that have come from the Administration, not
necessarily the CIA.
I think that erodes the trust that is essential for us to
perform our oversight function, which is absolutely critical
since you don't have the regular oversight mechanisms. Just for
the record, if you could reassure me again on your willingness
to be very forthright with this committee, I'd appreciate it.
Representative Pompeo. Yes, ma'am. I can assure you of
that. We talked about the fact that I have lived that life a
bit as well. I understand it's not only in--that interest is so
broad. This is what you spoke to. You mentioned it here. This
is a unique space where we operate in places where the American
public doesn't always get a chance to see everything.
So the willingness to make sure that we share this
information with policymakers who we trust will keep this
information safe and secure and handle this information
appropriately is absolutely critical. You have my assurance
I'll do everything to make sure that this committee has a
relationship with the Agency that is forthright each and every
day.
Senator Collins. Thank you.
I want to turn to the issue of cyber threats and cyber
security, which has been an obsession of mine for many years,
since Joe Lieberman and I tried to bring a cyber security bill
to the floor in 2012, only to have it filibustered.
I believe that the recent focus on the cyber intrusions in
the campaign has greatly increased the public's awareness of
this problem. But the fact is that the cyber intrusions go far
beyond the political space, troubling and appalling though that
is. There was a 2015 memo by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff and the Secretary of Defense that said that the
Department of Defense is subjected--this was a public memo--is
subjected to 100,000 attempted cyber attacks each day.
Now, those are attempts. Not all of them go through.
They're from nation-states, they're from terrorist groups,
they're from hackers, they're from international criminal
gangs, you name it. That's three million per month.
How would you assess our preparedness in the cyber domain?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, we've got lots of work to
do, may be the best way to summarize that. Not only the
government that is protecting our systems--and we have talked a
lot in the last few days about systems that belong to private
entities, political private entities. But I know that you have
done a great deal of work in making sure that the national
infrastructure, including its private sector infrastructure,
has the capacity to do what it needs to keep not only business
issues in the place they need to be--a lot of these folks are
subcontractors to the United States Government, as well as
private companies that have important information about
American national security activities.
So we have an awful lot of work to do. There is no reason
to expect that this threat is going to diminish. And that will
take a whole-of-government effort to do, shared by the
Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch to achieve better
cyber security for the national infrastructure as well.
Senator Collins. Let me very quickly express two concerns
about Iran. One, there are increasing reports that Iran is
using its civilian air fleet for illicit purposes, including
the transfer of arms to terrorist groups. If confirmed, would
you make a priority to provide an assessment to Congress of
whether or not Iran is using its civilian air fleet for such
purposes?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I will. I'm happy to share
with you, too--I've read about this as well. I'm happy to share
with you in closed session the knowledge that I have. It
concerns me greatly, the activities of Iran Air and Mahan Air
that are taking place today in Iran.
Senator Collins. Finally, do you believe that the
monitoring and verification regime in our agreement with Iran,
the JCPOA, as currently constructed is adequate to ensure that
Iran is fully complying with the agreement? Do you think that
the IAEA has sufficient access to detect any Iranian cheating?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, the Iranians are
professionals at cheating. So I think we have a very sound
inspection regime. I have to tell you, I worry about the fact
of a thing we do not know we do not know. So you have my
commitment that I will continue to improve and enhance our
capacity to understand that and do everything I can to diminish
the risk that in fact we are missing something.
Senator Collins. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you, Congressman Pompeo, for taking the time to sit
down with me earlier this week and for your willingness to
answer the prehearing questions that a number of us submitted
to you. I hope your responsiveness to committee inquiries
continues unabated should you be confirmed. That was certainly
the tone that you set with me in the office and I appreciate
that.
As I told you in our conversation, I have serious concerns
over the last few years that that has not always been the lay
of the land between the Director and this committee.
I understand that the DCIA has a mandate to be fully
supportive of the men and women who work there. That is
critical. However, I also hope that, if you are lucky enough to
fill that very important position, that we will have a new
approach of being open in hearings and with regard to
Congressional oversight.
I want to start on an issue that was central in some of the
prehearing questions and in our conversation. You indicated
that you would seek the counsel of experts at the CIA to
determine whether adhering to the Army Field Manual in
conducting interrogations was an impediment to gathering vital
intelligence. You've been supportive of the use of enhanced
interrogation techniques in the past, saying back in September
of 2014 that President Obama has continually refused to take
the war on radical Islamic terrorism seriously, and cited
ending our interrogation program in 2009 as an example.
Can you commit to this committee that under current law,
which limits interrogation to the Army Field Manual, that you
will comply with that law and that the CIA is out of the
enhanced interrogation business?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, you have my full commitment to
that, Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
Let me jump to another issue. Senator Wyden had touched on
this earlier, but I want to follow up a little bit. As the
Director and as somebody who sat on the House Intelligence
Committee over the last couple of years, you are very familiar
with the changes in the law that have been made. Under current
law, the USA Freedom Act that was passed recently, what changes
in that law would you encourage the Administration to seek, if
any?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I currently have no
intention of seeking such changes. But I think we discussed
when we met, I am certain if I am confirmed to learn a great
deal and develop a deeper understanding and hear lots of views
inside the Agency. And I will, I'll look to experts there and
experts outside. If in fact I conclude that there needs to be
changes to the USA Freedom Act to protect America, I will bring
them to you, and I have full expectations that you will
consider them fairly as well.
Senator Heinrich. I know we were recently briefed on
basically the status of being able to collect important
information under that law. I would assume that there was
probably a similar briefing on the House side. Were you a part
of that? And do you feel like, at least with what you know
today, that the surveillance that needs to be done is happening
under that structure while protecting innocent Americans from
unnecessary intrusion?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I've not had a chance to
have a complete briefing on that, but I can say that I have not
heard anything that suggests that there is a need for change
today.
Senator Heinrich. Jumping once again over to the JCPOA, I
know that the day before you were nominated to be the Director
you said that you look forward to, quote, ``rolling back the
Iran deal.'' How would you characterize your position on that
today, and would you stand by that statement?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, just so the record can
reflect it, that communication was approved before I was aware
that I was going to be the nominee to the Central Intelligence
Agency.
Having said that, look: I spoke to this a great deal. It
was my view that the JCPOA was a mistake for American national
security. I believed that. But it's also the case that after
that I came to an understanding that that was the arrangement
this President thought was in the best interests of America,
and I worked to make sure it was fully implemented.
Now, if I'm confirmed I'll continue to do that in my role
as the Director of the CIA. I will endeavor to provide straight
information to you about the progress that the JCPOA has made
toward reducing the threat from Iranian nuclear activity and
share with you when that's not happening as well.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Congressman.
Chairman Burr. Senator Blunt.
Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman.
Congressman, I know we were all pleased to get a chance to
visit with you privately. Quickly, you reached out to members
on this committee and met with us, and we'll have a chance to
visit later today in the classified setting.
I would go back a little bit to your discussion with
Senator Wyden. One of your last comments you made there was you
gave ground to no one in respecting America's privacy. If you
want to give any examples of that in your House career, that
would be fine. But as I understand--as I understood what I
thought was that discussion about a more expanded collection
effort, it was collecting things that people had chosen to no
longer keep private--collecting things on social media that
people had put out there.
I believe at some point you mentioned that somebody was
talking about an activity that could be terrorist or other
related, that they directed the CIA should have some interest
in that.
Am I right, you see a different privacy standard if someone
is trying to maintain their privacy as opposed to someone who's
putting information out there that anyone can see?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, of course. And I may not
have added there----
Chairman Burr. Mike, hit your button.
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
I may not have added there, the primary responsibility for
that here in the United States is not the Central Intelligence
Agency. There would be other agencies inside the Federal
Government. So in the first instance, the focus in the Central
Intelligence Agency is foreign intelligence collection. Make no
mistake about that.
But yes, I was referring to things that were in the public
space that the U.S. Government wanted to make sure they
understood fully and that we didn't leave publicly available
information off of things that we were using to prevent all
kinds of bad and terrorist activity here in the United States.
As a member of Congress, I voted repeatedly on pieces of
legislation that were important for protection of American
privacy. It's something that, if you come from south-central
Kansas and people know--you know that, being from Missouri--
people are deeply cognizant of the need for space for
themselves to live away from the government. It is something
that I hold dear and treasure myself as well.
Senator Blunt. On the issue of encryption, I for some time
on this committee and even in public hearings, and specifically
in public hearings, have had both the Director of the FBI and
NSA--I can recall both of them saying encryption is the best
thing out there and maybe in some cases the worst thing out
there.
There seems to be a real sense that encryption is more
often a cyber protection than something that we should create a
way around. What's your view of encryption in an ongoing way
and what the government could or should do to try to permeate
the encryption that's already out there in equipment?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I always start on this
topic reminding that my role as the Director of the CIA is
first to comply with the law. So as you develop policies around
encryption, you have my assurance that I'll always direct the
people who work for me to comply with the law with respect to
private communications.
Second, I think we need to acknowledge that encryption is
out there and that not all encryption takes place here in the
United States, and that the rules and policies that we put in
place in America are things that the intelligence community is
going to have to figure out a way to perform its function
knowing that that encryption will continue to be out there.
Then finally, we've spent a lot of time talking about how
we handle encrypted devices for Americans or encryption here in
the United States. My effort will be to understand it more
fully, to make sure that I understand its impact on my role to
keep America safe, to work alongside and develop a set of
policies to achieve that goal, while still achieving all the
other goals that we have here in America.
Senator Blunt. And spending some time in House
Intelligence, seeing the relationship between the DNI and the
CIA, what do you think you can do to add to the ability of the
DNI to do the originally stated job of coordinating
information, being sure everybody has access to the information
that's out there in a better way than we are currently seeing?
Representative Pompeo. The statute is pretty clear about
our respective roles and responsibilities. I have had a chance
to reread that a couple times since my nomination. I'm excited
at Senator Coats' nomination. If he's confirmed, I look forward
to working alongside of him.
I've also read the histories. I know that there have been
conflicts between the Director of National Intelligence and the
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. In my role as a
small business owner, I saw that, too, where there's different
people with different roles and you'd see conflict. My effort
was every day to work hard to make sure that we were additive,
that we each found our own space, that we worked across those
borders, not only individually, but that we directed our
individual organizations to accomplish that as well.
So it's not just the two senior officials, I think, that
have had conflict. We need to make sure our organizations each
understand that there's a place for the Director of National
Intelligence, to ensure that there is good communication among
the dozen-plus intelligence agencies, and that that information
is shared in a timely fashion, and that the Director of the CIA
has his plate full performing his primary functions as well.
Senator Blunt. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman Burr. Senator King.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Congressman Pompeo, welcome. I always--as we discussed, I
believe that an outside view of an agency that tends to be--not
tends to be, but is--secretive is an important point of view.
So I appreciate your willingness to serve.
The larger question--the great foreign policy mistakes of
my lifetime--Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, and Iraq--all were based in
one way or another on bad intelligence or, more accurately,
intelligence that was tailored to fit the demands of the
policymakers. You can't read the history of those decisions
without coming to that conclusion.
There is no more intimidating spot on the face of this
Earth than the Oval Office. Will you commit to giving the
Commander in Chief, the President, unpleasant news that may be
inconsistent with his policy preferences, based upon the best
intelligence that the CIA can develop?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, you have my commitment.
While I today am going to avoid talking about conversations
that the President and I had with as much energy and effort as
I can, I can tell you that I have assured the President-elect
that I'll do that as well. I shared with him that my role is
central to him performing his function and important and
critical only when I perform my function in that way, when I
take the great work that these men and women put their lives at
risk to develop and I deliver that to every policymaker in a
way that is straight up and forward. I commit to doing that
with you and the President.
Senator King. If he doesn't say at some point ``Mike, I'm
disappointed in you. Is that the best you can do?'', you've
failed.
The President-elect's choice for National Security
Director, General Flynn, has been quoted as saying that the CIA
has become a very political organization. In your written
response to our questions, you said ``There is a sense of a
more politicized intelligence environment.'' That's sort of
like saying people are saying there's a politicized
intelligence environment. What do you mean by ``there is a
sense of.'' Do you agree with General Flynn or do you not?
Representative Pompeo. Sir, I've had a chance as overseer
to observe the Central Intelligence Agency. I have had a chance
to sit with them and watch them fight through fire to get the
real facts. I have seen, however, I've seen political actors of
all stripes attempt to try and shape that. And I don't mean in
hard ways. There's no demand----
Senator King. I'm not talking about outside political
actors. I'm talking this allegation is that the Agency itself
has become politicized. Do you believe that?
Representative Pompeo. My experience is I do not believe
that.
Senator King. I appreciate that.
There are unsubstantiated media reports that there were
contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russians. If
confirmed, will you commit to exploring those questions and if
you find there is validity to those allegations refer the
information that you discover to the FBI?
Representative Pompeo. I want to make it clear that I share
your view that these are unsubstantiated allegations.
Senator King. I emphasized that.
Representative Pompeo. I understand that.
Senator King. These are very serious allegations.
Representative Pompeo. There are a number of very serious
things that have taken place. The leaks that have occurred as
well I consider to be intensely serious, too. I think that
Director Clapper's statement from last night or this morning
about his concern about these leaks is worthy as well.
But to your question more directly, I promise I will pursue
the facts wherever they take us. The Central Intelligence
Agency has that as one of its singular functions. You have my
commitment that I'll do that with respect to this issue and
each and every other issue as well.
Senator King. Thank you.
On July 24, 2016, you sent the following Twitter, quote:
``Need further proof that the fix was in from President Obama
on down. Busted, 19,252 emails from DNC leaked by WikiLeaks.''
Do you think WikiLeaks is a reliable source of information?
Representative Pompeo. I do not.
Senator King. And the fact that you used the word
``proof,'' ``need proof,'' that would indicate that you didn't
think it was a credible source of information?
Representative Pompeo. Senator King, I have never believed
that WikiLeaks is a credible source of information.
Senator King. Well, how do you explain your Twitter?
Representative Pompeo. I don't----
Senator King. Sorry. I don't want to be accused of the
wrong term there.
Representative Pompeo. I understand. I'd have to go back
and take a look at that, Senator. But I can assure you I have
some deep understanding of WikiLeaks and have never viewed it
as a credible source of information for the United States or
for anyone else.
Senator King. I appreciate that. Thank you. I appreciate
your candor here today and look forward to further discussions.
I just hope that you will hold onto the commitment that you
made today, because it's not going to be easy. But your primary
role is to speak truth to the highest level of power in this
country. I appreciate again your willingness to serve.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you very much, Senator.
Chairman Burr. With the indulgence of all members, I made a
promise to all members on the committee that were they in other
confirmation hearings and they showed up I would show them
preferential treatment on recognition. And if there is no
objection, I would like to recognize Senator McCain for five
minutes of questions.
Senator McCain. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I apologize
to the chairman of the committee for the hearing on General
Mattis.
I'm here to support Congressman Pompeo's nomination,
despite that he has overcome a very poor education and he's
been able to surmount that handicap, which has been a burden
for him throughout his career.
I just want--as you know, we conducted--we passed
legislation that the treatment of prisoners would only be in
accordance with the Army Field Manual, and that law was passed.
The vote was 93 to 7 in the United States Senate on that
particular amendment.
Will you continue to support that and enforce that law?
Representative Pompeo. Senator McCain, I voted for that and
I will.
Senator McCain. Thank you.
And will you, if you have any new recommendations for
changing the Army Field Manual or other rules governing
interrogations, you'll share those with the Congress?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Senator McCain. I don't want to take the time of the
committee, but obviously the Russians have been hacking.
There's no doubt about that, obviously. And whether they
intended--what their intentions were and whether they actually
succeeded or not, there was certainly no evidence.
What do you think it's going to take to deter Vladimir
Putin's continued interference, not just in our elections, but
attempts to have access to our most sensitive classified
materials, secrets? There's a long, long list of offenses in
cyber that Vladimir Putin and the Russians have basically
compromised our national security. What do you think it takes
to deter him?
Representative Pompeo. I don't know that I could answer
that question comprehensively today, but I can tell you it's
going to require an incredibly robust American response, a
response that is a security-related response. That is, we have
to get better at defending against these, and a response that
holds actors accountable who commit these kinds of actions
against the United States of America. The form, the nature, the
depth, the severity of those responses will be the decisions of
policymakers, that will be beyond me as the Director of the
Central Intelligence Agency.
But I do view my role there as essential in providing you
with a deep understanding of what's taking place, how that took
place, and a set of options surrounding the kinds of things in
the intelligence world at least one might take action on so we
can successfully push back against them.
Senator McCain. Wouldn't we first have to establish a
policy as to how we treat cyber attacks, and therefore from
which we can develop a strategy? Right now we have no policy.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I would agree with that. It
is very important that America, all of government, develop a
policy with respect to this, and I promise I'll work alongside
you to help develop such a policy with good intelligence.
Senator McCain. Right now we are treating their attacks on
a case by case basis, which is neither productive nor an
enterprise that will lead to success.
Representative Pompeo. I would agree with that, Senator.
Senator McCain. Do we have the capabilities, in your view,
to adequately respond to cyber attacks? I'm talking about the
capabilities now, not the policy.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I want to be a little
careful in open session talking about the full scope of
American capabilities. But this is an amazing Nation with
incredibly smart people, and if given a policy directive to
achieve the objective you're describing I am confident that
America can do that.
Senator McCain. I thank the Chairman and the indulgence of
the committee.
Congressman, I'm sure you'll do an outstanding job and look
forward to working with you.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Burr. Senator Lankford.
Senator Lankford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mike, it's great to see you. You and I served together in
the House. I saw up close and personal the tenacity of your
work and how seriously you took your task there, that you
engaged immediately in policy issues and that your passion was
to be able to come and help. That still remains today.
Your greatest asset is no doubt Susan and your tremendous
relationship and your family. I know that will be a great asset
to the Nation as well. So thank you for stepping up to do this.
Your whole life changed a month ago when you accepted the
possibility of the nomination for this. So thanks for stepping
up and doing it.
Let me ask you about the role of the CIA and its face and
the direction that it looks. Can you walk me through your
philosophical perspective of it being a foreign face, and what
is the role in the United States for the CIA?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, first of all, thanks for
the kind words. I enjoyed working alongside you on foreign
policy matters as well.
Look, the Central Intelligence Agency has the mission to
steal secrets and it's to be an espionage agency, getting hold
of information that bad actors around the world don't want us
to know. These are foreign entities, foreign actors, foreign
countries. Whether it's Iran or Russia or whoever that actor
may be, the intelligence agency's fundamental role is to make
sure that we deliver that information to policymakers so that
you can make informed judgments about how to respond to keep
America safe.
That's its function. It has lots of pieces to it. There are
people pieces. We have to make sure we have the finest talent
all across America so that it can deliver that product. We have
to make sure that we have policies and processes in place so
that we can deliver that. We need to make sure, when asked to
perform covert action activities, that we do so in a
professional way, consistent with the law, and vigorously
execute the President's directives there.
This is a world-class foreign intelligence service that, if
confirmed, I am humbled to have the opportunity to lead.
Senator Lankford. Let me ask about gathering intelligence
and getting it on a timely basis to the President and
decisionmakers and policymakers. It has been one of the ongoing
disputes, the speed of the turn-around, how fresh that
information, and at times for agencies to think and re-think,
edit and re-edit information, so that by the time you get it
it's so stale, it's so cold, that it's not as useful any more.
Talk me through just the methods and thoughts about trying
to get fresh information to policymakers and the President?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, it's incredibly important
that the information is timely. I understand sometimes there is
a tradeoff between accuracy and speed and depth. That's
something I've dealt with in the times I've run my two small
companies. We have to make sure that the CIA is world-class
with respect to developing this information in a timely, speedy
fashion and getting it to policymakers in a way that is both
reliable and timely.
We've all seen this. It's a complex world with difficult
foreign intelligence collections and pockets. We have to make
sure that the agency is world-class with respect to delivering
that to you.
Senator Lankford. Let me ask a strange question for you.
You are going to often be in meetings with Dan Coats and the
President and yourself. What's the difference in the
information that you're bringing to the President? How can you
and the Director of National Intelligence cooperate together in
bringing information, and what's the difference in your roles
there as the two of you sit and bring information to the
President?
Representative Pompeo. Look, the DNI, Senator Coats if he
is confirmed in his role, will have the important function of
being the President's senior intelligence policy adviser. I
have the glory, if confirmed, to lead the world's premier
intelligence collection agency, certainly with respect to human
intelligence. I hope to be part of making it even better. So
we'll bring a set of different perspectives. He will spend more
time evaluating intelligence that comes from different parts of
the intelligence community and I will focus on the work that
our Agency does. I'm pretty confident that he and I will work
together to deliver a comprehensive view of America's
intelligence posture and the information that has been derived
from that.
Senator Lankford. Thank you very much, Mike, for your
service; and Susan, for yours as well.
Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator Manchin.
Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Congressman, thank you for your service.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
Senator Manchin. Also, congratulations for your nomination
and to your family, who I'm sure are extremely proud, as they
should be.
With that being said, we live in a troubled world today, as
we all know. I think I just want to hear your thoughts on your
experiences within the military and also your experience as a
Congressperson in the position you've had in Congress on what
you consider the greatest threat the United States of America
faces today and what person brings the greatest threat to our
country and wants to do us harm?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, it's always hard to rack
and stack, especially in terms of the turmoil that we find in
the world today. But let me give it a throw. I begin with the
threat from terrorism as it extends into the homeland. If you
ask what is the most immediate threat, I think it's certainly
that. That is, it presents the most immediate threat of
personal risk to a person living in south-central Kansas. So we
need to be----
Senator Manchin. Is there a country associated with that?
Representative Pompeo. Boy, there are too many to name. But
let's start with activity that's taking place today in Syria
and Iraq with terrorists, both Sunni and Shia terrorists
opposed to the United States. ISIS and Al Qaida would be the
primary organizations today, but it extends far beyond that.
We've also seen challenges from other radical Islamic
terrorists.
Senator Manchin. You believe that terrorism is the highest
threat we face? I'm just saying, in your position right now, in
your experience?
Representative Pompeo. In the near-term threat to life and
limb of Americans, yes. I'd put North Korea, China, and Russia
right up there alongside them.
Senator Manchin. Which one has the weapons to do us harm?
Representative Pompeo. The nuclear powers are the ones that
have the biggest threat to do catastrophic harm to the United
States.
Senator Manchin. And which person in the world in your
estimation has the desire to do us the most harm?
Representative Pompeo. Boy, to ask me for a singular
individual is really a tough question, Senator Manchin. The
list is long.
Senator Manchin. There's a lot of them?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, sir.
Senator Manchin. West Virginians are asking me continually:
Can we trust the intel community? And I go back--I keep
referring back because of a lot of the political campaign
rhetoric. We had weapons of mass destruction. We declared war
on Iraq. We found out that we could have taken a different
course or altered that course. So they have concerns about
that.
I would just like to ask, do you have confidence in the
intel community, the CIA in particular that you're going into?
Representative Pompeo. I do. Look, I'd never stand here
today to tell you that the Agency has had perfection throughout
its history, nor that it will have perfection if I'm confirmed
on my watch. But I have great confidence in the men and women
who work there. They are patriots, they're warriors. They are
real people who have dedicated their lives to keeping America
safe. And I have the utmost confidence that if I am confirmed I
will get an opportunity to lead efforts that aren't
politicized.
Senator Manchin. Right now, I think you'd have to agree
that the morale is fairly low and they're being hit by many
different angles and different sides through the political
process that we go through, which can be very damaging, if you
will. What's your first step that you intend to take if
confirmed to lift that morale up and let them know that we're
on the same side?
Representative Pompeo. I might just respectfully disagree
with your question a little bit. I have in the last few weeks
had occasion to spend a little time with a handful of people
out there. I haven't seen the bad morale as you have described
it. But they're human beings. They're Americans, too. They
watch the political process.
What I have seen from the spirited warriors at the Central
Intelligence Agency is a desire to sort of get out of the
middle of this fight and continue to perform their function, to
do their work in a way that they know how to do.
I don't mean to denigrate the leadership of the Central
Intelligence Agency at all today. Director Brennan has
performed amazing service to America for a long time. But many
of them have served under multiple Presidents as well, and they
know that times change and leaders change. I think they're very
much looking forward to the new Administration to help them to
continue their function.
Senator Manchin. I definitely wish you well.
My final question would be your thoughts on sanctions. What
would be your thoughts on sanctions? Because as we're looking
at sanctions should we be looking at it state by state and
country by country? Or should we have a blanket piece of
legislation here that says that any country that has been a
state sponsor of cyber attacks on the United States of America,
should we not have sanctions in place to address all of them
the same? Or should it be country by country, deciding on what
sanctions that we think would be more detrimental?
I'm just saying that if the intel community confirms that a
state-sponsored effort, they should know exactly what they're
going to be facing if we confirm that.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, You've actually given me my
first opportunity to step out of the political world today and
tell you: Look, that decision, that policy, I think will be
left to others. I do have a record with respect to sanctions. I
voted for legislation authorizing sanctions on a number of
countries during my time as a member of the United States House
of Representatives.
Senator Manchin. Were they evaluated country by country?
Representative Pompeo. My recollection is, Senator, they
were nation by nation sanctions that we were evaluating.
Senator Manchin. So basically, whatever relationship you
had with that nation, you could be a little easier on one and
tougher on another. Don't you think as policymakers that we
should have sanctions that, listen, if you do this to us and
it's confirmed that it's state-sponsored by you, whether it be
financially, whether it be economically, whatever it might be,
these sanctions will go into effect immediately?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I'm going to defer on the
policy question today. I'll make sure you have all the
information you need to form good judgments about it. Thank you
very much.
Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Burr. Senator Cotton.
Senator Cotton. Mike, welcome before the committee and
congratulations on your nomination to be the Director of
Central Intelligence. Susan and Nick, it's good to see you
again. I know that you're very proud of Mike, as we all are.
This has been a very thorough hearing. We have spent lord
knows how many hours at the Agency and traveling around the
world, so I think I have a pretty good sense of your views on
these questions. Therefore I will reserve the rest of my
questions until the closed hearing, where we can have a little
bit more frank discussion.
Since Senator McCain scurrilously attacked your education,
I will stand up for our Army background. I will say I'm
troubled somewhat by the material I found in your biography
that you came in first in your class at West Point and
therefore had your choice of branches and chose armor instead
of infantry. I will consider this a youthful indiscretion that
does not reflect on your current service, and I will see you
this afternoon.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, Senator Cotton.
Chairman Burr. I am glad to see, Mike, that you haven't
forgotten where the razor is, like some Army veterans.
[Laughter.]
Senator Cotton. I'm preparing to collect covertly.
Chairman Burr. Senator Harris.
Senator Harris. Representative Pompeo, I was glad to meet
with you earlier this week and congratulations on your
nomination.
For clarification, have you read in its entirety the IC
report assessing Russian activities and intentions in recent
U.S. elections?
Representative Pompeo. I have.
Senator Harris. Do you fully accept its findings, yes or
no?
Representative Pompeo. I've seen nothing to cast any doubt
on the findings in the report.
Senator Harris. Your voting record and stated position on
gay marriage and the importance of having a, quote-unquote,
``traditional family structure'' for raising children, that's
pretty clear. I disagree with your position, but of course
you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't want that, however, to impact, your opinion on that
matter, the recruitment or retention of patriotic LGBT women
and men in the CIA, some of whom have, of course, taken great
risks to their lives for our country. Can you commit to me that
your personal views on this issue will remain your personal
views and will not impact internal policies that you put in
place at the CIA?
Representative Pompeo. Senator Harris, you have my full
commitment to that. I would only add that in my life as a
private businessman this same set of issues was out there. I
had my views at that time as well, and I treated each and every
member of the workforce that I was responsible for at those
times with dignity and respect and demanded of them the same
things that I demanded of every other person that was working
as part of my team.
Senator Harris. And do I have your assurance that this
equal treatment will include policies related to child care
services, family benefits, and accompanied posts for
dependents?
Representative Pompeo. Without knowing the full set of
policies and benefits at the Central Intelligence Agency--I
haven't had the chance to find that out just yet--you have my
assurance that every employee will be treated in a way that is
appropriate and equal.
Senator Harris. And that you will not put in place any
policies that would discriminate against any members because of
their sexual orientation?
Representative Pompeo. I can't imagine putting in place any
policy that was discriminatory with respect to any employee.
Senator Harris. Thank you.
I'm also concerned about rhetoric related to Muslims from
high-profile members of the incoming Administration,
particularly Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, with whom I
imagine you'll be working closely. I don't want to impact
recruitment or retention of the patriotic, critically important
Muslim men and women of the CIA, some of course who have taken
great risks to serve our country. Can you commit to me that you
will be a tireless advocate for all members of the CIA, all of
the workforce?
Representative Pompeo. Yes, ma'am.
Senator Harris. CIA Director Brennan, who has spent a 25-
year career at the CIA as an analyst, a senior manager, and
station chief in the field has said that when, quote, ``CIA
analysts look for deeper causes of rising instability in the
world, one of the causes those CIA analysts see is the impact
of climate change.''
Do you have any reason to doubt the assessment of these CIA
analysts?
Representative Pompeo. Senator Harris, I haven't had a
chance to read those materials with respect to climate change.
I do know the Agency's role there. Its role is to collect
foreign intelligence, to understand threats to the world--that
would certainly include threats from poor governance, regional
instability, threats from all sources--and deliver that
information to policymakers. To the extent that changes in
climatic activity are part of that foreign intelligence
collection task, we will deliver that information to you and to
the President.
Senator Harris. In the past you have questioned the
scientific consensus on climate change. Nevertheless, according
to NASA multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific
journals showed that 97 percent or more of actively published
climate scientists agree that climate warming trends over the
past century are extremely likely due to human activities. In
addition, most of the leading scientific organizations
worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this
position.
Do you have any reason to doubt NASA's findings?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I've actually spoken to
this in my political life some. My commentary most all has been
directed to ensuring that the policies that America put in
place actually achieve the objective of ensuring that we didn't
have catastrophic harm that resulted from change in climate. I
continue to hold that view.
I frankly as the Director of CIA would prefer today not to
get into the details of climate debate and science. It seems my
role is going to be so different and unique from that. It is
going to be to work alongside warriors, keeping Americans safe.
So I stand by the things that I've said previously with respect
to that issue.
Senator Harris. I'm not clear. Do you believe that NASA's
findings are debatable?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, I haven't spent enough time
to tell you that I've looked at NASA's findings in particular.
I can't give you any judgment about that today.
Senator Harris. Can you guarantee me that you will and
we'll have a follow-up conversation on this?
Representative Pompeo. I'm happy to continue to talk about
it, yes, ma'am, of course.
Senator Harris. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Senator Cornyn.
Senator Cornyn. Congratulations, Congressman Pompeo, on
your nomination.
Representative Pompeo. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Cornyn. And your family, I know they're very proud
of you. I have every confidence that you will do an outstanding
job as the next Director of the CIA.
I want to ask you about the comments that were made by the
FBI Director back in May 2016 when he identified what he called
the ``Ferguson effect'' on law enforcement. Hang in there with
me and let me make the application to this context. Basically,
the argument is that law enforcement was being self-restrained
in terms of its policing activities, thus exposing law
enforcement to assaults, many of which were deadly assaults,
and that public safety was not being enhanced because they were
not using the full array of their authorities for fear of what
might happen in terms of public opinion or political
retribution.
I have read your predecessor's, General Michael Hayden's,
book ``Playing to the Edge'' and it strikes me that he states
the proposition well in terms of my view about what our
intelligence authorities ought to do in collecting intelligence
and protecting the safety and security of the United States.
I don't want our intelligence officers and authorities to
restrain their activities for fear of political retribution or
fear that they will be criticized for using the lawful
authorities granted by the United States Government to the
edge, not going over the edge. But I want to make sure that
they take full--they take full use of those lawful authorities.
I know that one of the conundrums that we have in a
democracy is that when we start talking about what those
authorities are and what they should be there is a natural
reticence to do so because, of course, in Russia and China and
North Korea and Iran they don't have those problems. In
dictatorships and autocracies, they just do what they want to
do without regard to any oversight, any laws, any constitution,
that necessarily and importantly limits what we can do in a
democracy.
But I think there is a danger when we start talking about
the role of our intelligence agencies that, either wittingly or
unwittingly, sometimes misinformation or disinformation about
the nature of the activity and nature of the authorities enters
into the debate in a way that eventually damages or limits our
ability to play to the edge of our lawful authorities and the
interests of our security and safety.
I just want to get an idea from you about what you think
the Director's role is in terms of engaging in the debate when
it comes to what authorities that either your Agency or the FBI
or other members of the intelligence community need. There was
a question about metadata, which of course metadata is not
content. The United States Supreme Court has said that there's
no reasonable expectation of privacy, so the Fourth Amendment
isn't implicated. This is information that's routinely
collected by other, by law enforcement agencies.
My concern is--and maybe I'm not being as direct and clear
as I should--I just want to know what you think your role will
be in terms of standing up and defending the lawful authorities
of the intelligence community in order to play to the edge of
that legal authority in the interest of the safety and security
of the American people.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, thank you for that
question. It's a great and incredibly important question. I
share your concerns that we run the risk of not using the
authorities in a way that is important in keeping America safe
if folks are afraid that there will be political retribution.
One of my tasks in that vein will be to make sure that
we're doing it right, that we are doing it in a legal and
constitutional way, and then when we are to defend the people
who are doing that vigorously to have their backs at every
single moment. You have my word that I will do that.
There's a second piece to this as well I think that is
important and you hit upon it, which is I think we have an
obligation as leaders to share with the American people all
that we can about what's going on and what's not going on and
to do so in a truthful and complete manner. It's part of why I
think the oversight function is so important. To the extent
we're surprising people, whether we're surprising members of
Congress or we're surprising the public, we run the risk of
losing those very important authorities.
So I think each of us has a responsibility and if confirmed
as the Director of the CIA I will see it as my responsibility
to do everything I can to make sure that we're talking about
the critical nature of these authorities and how they keep
Americans safe and the goals that they have accomplished in
this good work in a way that permits the intelligence community
to lawfully and constitutionally do all of its
responsibilities.
Senator Cornyn. Mr. Chairman, can I follow up just briefly
with one last question.
Chairman Burr. The Senator can.
Senator Cornyn. And of course none of those authorities are
going to be decided in all likelihood by the Supreme Court of
the United States. In other words, the Office of Legal Counsel,
the appropriate authorities at the Department of Justice, are
going to give guidance to the CIA and our intelligence
community on what those--where that line is so you can,
consistent with your commitment, make sure that you apply the
law that Congress has passed and as signed by the President.
But ultimately, no one's ever going to give you 100 percent
assurance that you're playing consistent with those laws as
interpreted by the Department of Justice and the Office of
Legal Counsel won't be criticized in a political format later
on in such a way as to cause retaliation perhaps, or some
concern that intelligence officers are going to jeopardize
their career and their family's livelihood by playing
consistent with the best and highest legal guidance that
they're given.
How do you view that role? And maybe that's just inherent
in the nature of our system, but it always strikes me as a
tremendous disservice to our men and women in the intelligence
field for politics to intervene and come back and undermine the
lawful authorities and direction that our intelligence
community is given when they're conducting their activities.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, it's a real risk. It's an
important part of my role to make sure that we have clarity,
that those lines that you talk about are clear and bright, and
so that this risk that you refer to--I've heard others talk
about it as second-guessing--is minimized, happens as rarely as
possible, and that there aren't surprises to people as they go
through.
That's incredibly important, and the Director of the CIA
has an important role there, both making sure that we're
behaving lawfully and, when we do, defending the men and women
who we ask to do really hard things inside of those laws.
Senator Cornyn. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Burr. The Chair will recognize Senator Warner for
a brief statement and then Senator Wyden for one question.
Senator Warner. I understand what my friend the Senator
from Texas has been saying, but I just wanted to respond and
put on the record--one of the things that's impressed me with
you, Congressman, in our meetings is your thoughtfulness, and I
think you're a student of history as well, and we've talked
about that. I think part of the responsibility of the Agency
you may head is unique in that it is tasked with taking on
covert activities and relies in many ways upon the oversight of
this committee and, frankly, the trust of the American public
to not go over the edge.
I think there have been times--and we could debate those
times--where clearly in the history of the Agency there have
been examples where, whether it was through political pressure
or otherwise, the Agency went over the edge and, unfortunately,
that in the end did not make America safer.
I'd also say that in many of these areas, whether it's the
changes of technology--and I know there's a robust debate
around encryption and privacy in the digital age--that edge was
not defined yet both from a legal standpoint; and many times
Congress has not done its job in terms of giving this, this
policy guidance.
So I want you to and hope that you will carry out your
duties and keep America safe, but I think we get into a
treacherous area when we're trying to push over an edge where
those edges are not defined or Congress has not done its job.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Wyden. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Congressman, during the campaign the President-elect
essentially laid out something that looks to me like
outsourcing surveillance. He said about Russian hacking: ``I'd
love to have that power.'' He encouraged the Russians to hack
Secretary Clinton's emails and suggested they be provided to
the press.
We're now in a different period. He's the President-elect.
And it's one thing to talk, as we did earlier, with respect to
your idea for collecting metadata in the future, ``all
metadata'' in your words. But I want to ask you about
outsourced surveillance. If a foreign government, an
organization, a company or an individual provided the Agency
with the communications of Americans on whom there were no
warrants, what would your response be?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, that's a complex question
that you've asked. I understand that there are policies in
place, I believe at the Agency--it may even be at the
Department of Justice--with respect to this very issue. If I
can step back and tell you that, look, it is not lawful to
outsource that which we cannot do, the Agency cannot do, under
its laws. That is, we can't be too clever by half.
Senator Wyden. But that's not the question. You can't
request the information from a foreign government, we
understand that. But the question is what happens if it's
provided to you, especially since it's being encouraged?
Representative Pompeo. Senator, my understanding is that
the same set of rules that surrounded the information if it
were collected by the U.S. Government apply to information that
becomes available as a result of collection from non-U.S.
sources as well.
Senator Wyden. Mr. Chairman, your courtesy has been
appreciated.
I would only ask, in writing I'd like your response on
that. Obviously, part of this involves minimization. There are
other issues, 12333. I'd like that in writing.
[The information referred to follows:]
Senator Wyden. I'd also like in writing before we vote what
limits you would have on your metadata proposal, particularly
since you're advocating that it apply to personal lifestyle
information.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The information referred to follows:]
Chairman Burr. It was the hope of the Chair that we would
allow the Congressman an hour in between this and the closed
session. We are down to 30 minutes. I'm going to recognize
Senator Harris for a very brief question if I may, and then I
would ask, if there are any additional follow-ups, they be
moved to the closed session.
Senator Harris. Sure.
Mr. Pompeo, on the issue of climate change, I understand
you're not a scientist. What I'd like to know and what I want
to hear from you is I want a CIA Director who is willing to
accept the overwhelming weight of evidence when presented, even
if it turns out to be politically inconvenient or requires you
to change a previously held position.
So what I want to hear from you is a guarantee that when
presented with that evidence you are willing to then take a
position that defers to the weight of that evidence even if it
requires you to change a previously held position that may have
been politically helpful to you or a position that you have
taken during your tenure in elected office.
Representative Pompeo. Senator, you have my commitment to
that. I am an engineer by training. Facts and data matter, and
you have my assurance that if I'm confirmed in my role as the
CIA Director I will look at the evidence and give a straight-up
answer to you and to all the policymakers to whom I have a
responsibility.
Senator Harris. Thank you.
Chairman Burr. Congressman Pompeo, this brings to a close
the open session of this hearing. Let me add something Senator
Cornyn and Senator Warner spoke on and that is that's important
that we realize that every President has the authority to
provide direction or directives, and that has certainly been
the case for every President I've been involved with in the
intelligence community. And that directive expands or contracts
in some cases the ability of the Agency, and all members of
this committee should realize that.
I want to apologize for not giving you the hour and I
apologize for the power interruption. But I want to thank you
for your service to Kansas. I want to thank you for your
service to the Congress. I want to thank you for your service
to the country as a board member of West Point as you have
served, like I have, in the past.
I want to thank you for how you've used your military
education and, more importantly, how that's highlighted the
greatness of the institution and the role it plays in
developing future leaders of the country, of which you
exemplify that. For that we are grateful.
This hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:32 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
Supplemental Material
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[all]